CPR for Baby BTS

[Fatal_S]

My dog alerts me when my critters are loose, and will kill loose crickets for me Inside the house she ignores/tolerates my critters, but outside she becomes very protective of them. It's amazingly useful since we have lots of stray cats around the area.

I realize that dogs can be hard to train. My dog is a very dominant terrier/shepherd cross. She is dog-aggressive (or rather, dog-stupid). But we account for that and keep her away from other dogs. It is always the owners responsibility to keep their animals from harming others, including wild animals.

[tylociraptor]

Lea, it was a wild BTS. Sadly you can't always keep your dog away from wild animals!

I've had my dog for nearly a decade, and I've managed to keep her from harming any wild animals, both by teaching her to be gentle with all animals, and by keeping her under my control when outside. If my negligence ever allowed my pet to harm wildlife, I'd feel awful. I am glad that at least the babies in this tale still got a chance to live.

My dog is quite gentle as well (she's a boxer), but is still playful, and sometimes likes to think the squirrels around here are playmates. If she ever got a hold of one she could probably harm it, completely unintentionally. I've never had a problem yet, but you never know if there's a squirrel or something that will come too close and not run away.

Even when we control our pets, we can't control wild animals and what they do. If they come too close and are attacked or 'played' with (depending on size, and on the dog), they can be hurt. So long as you aren't just letting your dog or cat run around free outside, your're 'in the clear' of guilt in my eyes, unless you're... you know, 'sicking' your pet on wild animals... :X I mean, if Kali got ahold of a squirrel you bet I'd be trying to grab it from her or get it away from her, but things happen! D: I too would be absolutely heartbroken, as I love all animals.

And as Sarika says- terriers are breeds that were created to chase after small wild game like foxes, squirrels, etc. They, and sighthounds, have a VERY HIGH prey drive that can often be hard to, or at times impossible to break. You can try as you might but accidents can happen! I don't think Qwerpy intended for his or her dog to hurt the wild skink, and I am sure that they were very saddened by the event, and learned their lesson if there was one there to learn (such as do not let your dog off leash or something of the sort).

I don't mean to be defending them without the whole story, I just kind of feel bad. A couple of the responses to them seemed a little aggressive to me (but I could be mis-reading), and I am sure they didn't intend to upset... Seemed to me they were sharing a story and comparing their personal experience.

I think both of their stories have merit- For James, to not give up on a baby right away if it is stillborn but appears viable, and that reptile cpr can work in those situations... and for Qwerpy that if you come across or witness a pregnant skink killed, that there's always a chance for her babies, especially late in the season, so even if it's a little icky, you might be able to save quite a few lives.

[James Wilson]

For instance I have a terrier cross and it is verrrry difficult to curb her instinct to chase anything that moves. My Shih-Tzu on the other hand is the total opposite and can't be bothered to waste energy chasing anything. Or he just gets down right scared of it. But my point is you can't always teach your dogs to be as respectful towards wildlife as we are, even if you are a good pet owner.

In situations where you can't, the solution is simple. Put the dog on a leash, or do not bring it out. As humans, we are supposed to be the smart ones. There are always options.

[James Wilson]

I realize that dogs can be hard to train. My dog is a very dominant terrier/shepherd cross. She is dog-aggressive (or rather, dog-stupid). But we account for that and keep her away from other dogs. It is always the owners responsibility to keep their animals from harming others, including wild animals.

Well said! That is it in a nutshell.

[Sarikazam]

In situations where you can't, the solution is simple. Put the dog on a leash, or do not bring it out. As humans, we are supposed to be the smart ones. There are always options.

Maybe so, I suppose I could put a leash on her every time I take her into my fenced back yard to do her business. But what about my cats? They are mainly outdoor cats (They get pretty cross if you try to lock them up and then they pee on the carpet out of spite, despite them having an emergency litter box inside) but when I let them out my cat occasionally brings back little "gifts". Now I suppose I could lock them up, but that would result in two very mad cats and a yellow, smelly carpet.

I hope I am not sounding confrontational, but I try to do what I can to prevent my animals from hurting wildlife while still keeping them happy (and my carpet odor free). I am not trying to defend people standing back and letting their pets hurt wildlife, but I am saying that accidents happen and it is not always in our power to stop them from ever happening. They are accidents after all. I am sure Qwerpy wasn't happy when his dog killed a wild skink, but at least he made the best of it and was able to save 13 babies, and possibly since then they were able to learn from the incident and make sure their dog was unable to repeat that action.

[LarissaLurid]

I'm so glad you were able to save the still born! Reminds me of what other animals do as parents when they have a baby born that isn't moving. Like elephants, who will kick their babies. It looks like the baby is being beaten up and thrown around really hard, but then it comes to life and is saved.

[Fatal_S]

Sari, it is in your power, but it's something you choose not to do. You have your reasons (unhappy cats, stained carpet, convenience of being able to let the animals go around w/o leashes) but it's still a choice you make and the risk is absorbed by the animals involved (your animals are at risk when you're not there, and they put other animals at risk). I can't tell you if it's right or wrong, but it is a choice that you make.

This is a sensitive issue in the BTS (and reptile community) because so many innocent animals are killed by loose pets. Or worst, horribly maimed and left to suffer. The animals aren't at fault, it's the owners who let the animals out. There are many people on this forum and in the community who try to care for the injured. It kills us inside to know how preventable it is, but owners aren't willing to take responsibility for their animals. For example, if that dog hadn't been loose, there would be two more animals alive today. In places like Aus where there are endangered animals, it's horrific that owners could allow pets to destroy the wildlife. And yet it happens. Because people don't care, or make the choice to accept the risk/responsibility.

[James Wilson]

In situations where you can't, the solution is simple. Put the dog on a leash, or do not bring it out. As humans, we are supposed to be the smart ones. There are always options.

Maybe so, I suppose I could put a leash on her every time I take her into my fenced back yard to do her business. But what about my cats? They are mainly outdoor cats (They get pretty cross if you try to lock them up and then they pee on the carpet out of spite, despite them having an emergency litter box inside) but when I let them out my cat occasionally brings back little "gifts". Now I suppose I could lock them up, but that would result in two very mad cats and a yellow, smelly carpet.

I hope I am not sounding confrontational, but I try to do what I can to prevent my animals from hurting wildlife while still keeping them happy (and my carpet odor free). I am not trying to defend people standing back and letting their pets hurt wildlife, but I am saying that accidents happen and it is not always in our power to stop them from ever happening. They are accidents after all. I am sure Qwerpy wasn't happy when his dog killed a wild skink, but at least he made the best of it and was able to save 13 babies, and possibly since then they were able to learn from the incident and make sure their dog was unable to repeat that action.

I am really not interested in discussing any more what if situations. We are not discussing cats, and we do not even know the breed of dog it was. And when it comes down to it, the breed is of no matter. It is still the owners responsibility to protect their dogs from wildlife and wildlife from their dogs. Either you see it or you don't.

[James Wilson]

Actually, I disagree on the lack of pressure idea.
Last year my dog killed a pregnant wild northern bts. I was about to bury the dead lizard when I realised that it still had babies in it. So, I did what needed to be done and I performed a cesarian on the dead skink with a kitcheen knife.
Long story short, I saved 13 baby skinks (one was still-born).
All I had to do was break the placenta and they were good as gold.

The sad irony to this post is that if actually tried, you could have probably saved the one little still born skink and reduced the casualties by half.

[Sarikazam]

Sorry, I was unaware it was such a sensitive topic, I will try not to bring it up again.

But back on topic I found it very encouraging to see that you were able to save that one baby that many people probably would have given up on!
It is definitely an interesting theory that re-simulating birth can trigger a response like that!

[tylociraptor]

James, I don't want to come across as rude or confronational, but you seem to be commenting very aggressively to Qwerpy. "If you tried"... he did a great deal already, and did not know. To me, if this had happened to me, and you told me "well if you tried, you could have saved it", I would be heartbroken and devastated, knowing I did not do so! It... seems very mean spirited to say. I wouldn't have known how to save a new born baby born stillborn... this person obviously did not either. If something like this ever happens again, maybe he will be able to use your CPR technique and save more, but lets hope that it doesn't.

I'll also add to your earlier point, I do not know if you own dogs, but it is very cruel to 'just keep them inside'. Dogs need exercise, in the form of walks, and play. They should always be leashed, unless in a dog park that allows off-leash interaction, no ifs, ands, or buts, so I agree with you on that point. I wholly agree with Sarikazam when she says that accidents happen... The breed very much does matter, as well. Some breeds are specially bred for hunting small animals, others for herding animals, others for guarding and so on. A herding breed like a Shetland Sheepdog may try to round up a squirrel without ever touching it, but a Greyhound, which is a sighthound, is far more likely to go straight for it and in for the kill. Much in the way if you own a Pit Bull or a Shiba, you should be wary of it having dog aggression and make sure you treat situations accordingly. To say breed does not matter in the situation would be like saying skinks are just like monitor lizards, because they are lizards. Sure, dogs may not be of different species, but we have made them for various reasons! I understand you may (and probably do) mean that you don't care if it's a rottweiler or a chihuahua, the same care should be taken... which I agree with... but the whole breed thing is why I am getting a Sheltie and not a Borzoi- the sheltie has no prey drive, the Borzoi does, and that will be better for the smaller pets I own!

I'm sorry for this wall of a post but when I first got my rats, I was treated very poorly by the members of a rat community because of their care... but I had adopted them from a co worker and had what she gave me, and went to them asking for advice. This person has shared a story- yes, a sad one- and a few people seem to be kind of jumping on him. Maybe a better response would be, judging by the feelings expressed by some members:

"Hi, I really don't appreciate hearing about your dog killing skinks, although I am glad you saved the babies. In future, please be more aware, if you aren't already from your experience, of what your dog is into when outside, Australian wildlife as you know is very precious! And if you ever happen to have a similar situation in which you have to save a baby, you should definitely try to do CPR, maybe you can save even more!"

I just feel a real air of aggression here from one story which nobody really has any background on, and a lot of assumptions! Come on guys...

[Sarikazam]

Okay, I realise I just said I wouldn't bring it up again, but I just wanted to add that I agree with everything Tylociraptor said. I didn't really address it earlier but I also felt like Qwerpy was being unfairly attacked. I mean it was a bad thing his dog did, but he obviously wasn't encouraging his dog to do it and he did everything he could to make the best of it. Perhaps he could have saved one more baby but none of us really know if that was possible. So I don't think it is fair to claim they could have, if they tried CPR. I might have worked in some cases, but it won't work in every scenario. For all we know the baby could have been injured or killed in the initial dog attack.

As someone who has lost newly hatched reptiles before to mysterious causes, I can say it is very heartbreaking and I could only imagine how much more distressing it would be for someone to tell me I could have saved it by doing something, but doing so in a aggressive way that makes it sound like I don't care that they died.

Also I could add (If I so dare) that wasn't a very good impression of this forum to give to a brand new member.

[Bird_Brain]

IMO, cats should never be left outside unattended and able to roam free. If you want them outside, get a large enclosure for them and keep them inside the other times. They cause a lot of problems to the eco systems as well as over populate rather quick. They also spread several very serious diseases. IMO, letting your cat roam free is irresponsible. There are many different products to help break an unwanted cat behavior as well as various training methods. I understand that cats are VERY finicky and dont like change, but again there are ways to combat these unwanted behaviors. Just because it is easier for the owner, doesnt mean is the correct way.

As far as dog behavior, I 100% believe that you can train a dog to obey 100% if you are willing to do the training and maintain it. After seeing many obedience trained dogs, I feel anything is possible. However, the issue lies with the owners not willing to keep the commitment to training the dogs. And that is the reason most dogs have behavior issues. Lack of training and lack of exercise/jobs. I have 3 dogs, Bouvier des Flanders, Min Pin, and a French Bulldog. The Min pin and Frenchie were raised by myself from pups, my Bouvier was adopted from breeder when she was 2. I was told when I adopted her that I would never be able to have a cat or other small animals due to her high prey drive. I also own a cat and actually had the cat before I had the Bouvier. With proper training and socialization, I was able to keep them together without the dog chasing/killing the cat. My min pin is the best Vole (meadow mouse) killer I have, yet she is always out with me now taking care of the free ranging chickens, ducks, and guineas. My Frenchie, well he's just special lol. He would rather play Tug-o-war with the shrub than chase any animal.

However, I honestly havent worked with the Bouvier with the chickens and she will pace the fence trying to get them and honestly she has recently killed one of my birds. I am going to be starting with her training with the chickens to eliminate this problem (just wish I would have done it from the get go). I feel there will be no issues with this training due to the success of training her with the cat. However, because of this killed bird, I feel I have failed as a dog owner. It shouldnt have happened for several different reasons (my irresponsibility, my failure to properly train my dog, etc) and I gladly accept that this was purely my fault.

I do agree that there is the instinct in different breeds to kill animals, however, I also feel that with proper socialization and training, you can have a dog that will not follow their instinct, but rather follow your lead. The issue is some dogs need more training and socialization that owners are either not able to do or not willing to do, thus leaving us with "bad" dogs.

While I am sure many people have issues with the owners dog killing native wildlife, lets also look at this as a new member trying to call out a very knowledgeable and recognizable BTS expert in their first post on the forum. IMO, that was not very respectful on their part.

[James Wilson]

James, I don't want to come across as rude or confronational, but you seem to be commenting very aggressively to Qwerpy. "If you tried"... he did a great deal already, and did not know. To me, if this had happened to me, and you told me "well if you tried, you could have saved it", I would be heartbroken and devastated, knowing I did not do so! It... seems very mean spirited to say. I wouldn't have known how to save a new born baby born stillborn... this person obviously did not either. If something like this ever happens again, maybe he will be able to use your CPR technique and save more, but lets hope that it doesn't.

I'll also add to your earlier point, I do not know if you own dogs, but it is very cruel to 'just keep them inside'. Dogs need exercise, in the form of walks, and play. They should always be leashed, unless in a dog park that allows off-leash interaction, no ifs, ands, or buts, so I agree with you on that point. I wholly agree with Sarikazam when she says that accidents happen... The breed very much does matter, as well. Some breeds are specially bred for hunting small animals, others for herding animals, others for guarding and so on. A herding breed like a Shetland Sheepdog may try to round up a squirrel without ever touching it, but a Greyhound, which is a sighthound, is far more likely to go straight for it and in for the kill. Much in the way if you own a Pit Bull or a Shiba, you should be wary of it having dog aggression and make sure you treat situations accordingly. To say breed does not matter in the situation would be like saying skinks are just like monitor lizards, because they are lizards. Sure, dogs may not be of different species, but we have made them for various reasons! I understand you may (and probably do) mean that you don't care if it's a rottweiler or a chihuahua, the same care should be taken... which I agree with... but the whole breed thing is why I am getting a Sheltie and not a Borzoi- the sheltie has no prey drive, the Borzoi does, and that will be better for the smaller pets I own!

I'm sorry for this wall of a post but when I first got my rats, I was treated very poorly by the members of a rat community because of their care... but I had adopted them from a co worker and had what she gave me, and went to them asking for advice. This person has shared a story- yes, a sad one- and a few people seem to be kind of jumping on him. Maybe a better response would be, judging by the feelings expressed by some members:

"Hi, I really don't appreciate hearing about your dog killing skinks, although I am glad you saved the babies. In future, please be more aware, if you aren't already from your experience, of what your dog is into when outside, Australian wildlife as you know is very precious! And if you ever happen to have a similar situation in which you have to save a baby, you should definitely try to do CPR, maybe you can save even more!"

I just feel a real air of aggression here from one story which nobody really has any background on, and a lot of assumptions! Come on guys...

You just do not seem get it. There is a thing called respect. I would dare say I have earned some here. Sorry, but Qwerpy has not. In addition, Qwerpy did not show any. Qwerpy's post was rude, lacked respect, and was thoughtless. He did not save 13 skinks, he caused 2 to be killed due to lack of responsibility. They would have been born just fine on their own if his dog did not kill the mother, and whose fault was that? So to come here saying he saved 13 skinks seems a bit presumptious. And yes, if he had tried, he most likely could have saved the still born one as well. As for the dog issue, and the question of if I own dogs, well you obviously have not read the entire thread. You might consider doing just that as it would answer many questions. In addition, nobody here has said to "just keep their dogs inside". That being said, dogs can be trained, and they can be put on leash. If an owner is not willing to do these things, than maybe they should not have dogs. I find it ironic and almost funny that you are coming here and telling me to "please be more aware". Trust me when I tell you I was very aware, and I went very easy on him because he was a newbie. Just like I am going easy on you right now, because you are fairly new here as well. That being said I have very little patience for people that show a lack of basic respect.

[James Wilson]

Okay, I realise I just said I wouldn't bring it up again, but I just wanted to add that I agree with everything Tylociraptor said. I didn't really address it earlier but I also felt like Qwerpy was being unfairly attacked. I mean it was a bad thing his dog did, but he obviously wasn't encouraging his dog to do it and he did everything he could to make the best of it. Perhaps he could have saved one more baby but none of us really know if that was possible. So I don't think it is fair to claim they could have, if they tried CPR. I might have worked in some cases, but it won't work in every scenario. For all we know the baby could have been injured or killed in the initial dog attack.

As someone who has lost newly hatched reptiles before to mysterious causes, I can say it is very heartbreaking and I could only imagine how much more distressing it would be for someone to tell me I could have saved it by doing something, but doing so in a aggressive way that makes it sound like I don't care that they died.

Also I could add (If I so dare) that wasn't a very good impression of this forum to give to a brand new member.

Like I said to tylociraptor, That was me going easy on him because he was a newbie. But you do not seem to understand either. Yes his dog did this, and whose fault is that? Not the dog's. I am sure he did not encourage it, but he obviously did not take the proper measures to prevent this from happening. So no, this was not some accident. This was preventable, and it happened due to a lack of responsibility on the owner's part. Once again, dogs can be trained, and they can be put on leash. If an owner is not willing to do these things, than maybe they should not have dogs. I found Qwerpy's post to be rude, thoughtless, presumptious, and lacking respect. And like I said earlier, I have little patience for people that lack respect.

[Lea]

Hmm, sorry, James, but since we are going in circles with dogs, cats and irresponsible owners having a lack of respect and understanding ... I'm going to split this topic and move it to the advanced discussion area, where we can focus back on the wonders of saving a small baby skink, stillborn from the womb.