Mouthrot?

[Sojak]

I wish I could get pictures to make this easier, but not only have I not had a camera handy on me when he shows these signs, but getting one turned on and focused in the short time he has his mouth open is not a realistic option. I'm going to keep observing and working on it, but for now I'll do my best to explain. Skip to the bottom for the basic symptoms, the rest is context to preemptively answer questions I'm sure I'd otherwise get.

First of all, I've been around a couple BTS for many years. I'm pretty familiar with them, though by no means able to call myself an expert. I'm familiar with their needs and am not new to the species in any way. What I am new to is complications.

My sister owned the first one, and I followed not long after. We've had these two for I think 5 years or more. The sister in question is currently out of town, and I've been left in charge of her little monsters for that time. She recently got another, and he's had a decent amount of time to get used to his new surroundings and has been coming around nicely, but I'm seeing some red flags that I'm not sure my sister noticed in the time we've had him (about a month)

First of all, I've never seen him drink. I fully admit this could very easily just be a case of me never happening to look that way when it does happen, but it's something worth pointing out anyway.

Second, when he opens his mouth (to yawn or work food down) I can sometimes see a white substance that almost looks like it's pooled on his tongue. I've tried to google this, but to no avail. It's a tough search simply because I know that anyone posting somewhere about this would use such a variety of words to describe it that I'm just not going to be able to find it. That's why I'm posting here.

I found the white substance on his tongue strange but not all that alarming, but today it was beautiful out and I thought he'd appreciate some sun and open space, so I brought him out for his first outdoor romp in the grass. Upon setting him down, he sort of just sat there. I think the open space freaked him out a bit. I took a few steps back to give him space, but when I came back he flashed his tongue at me. I figure he was probably just overwhelmed and feeling threatened (what can we do but assume with these little guys?) so I backed off and when I returned, it was gentler and slower. He flicked his tongue on my hand and seemed to feel better, though I noticed a bit of saliva at the crease of one side of his mouth. After a little while of enjoying the outdoors, I scooped him up to go back inside. He was still a bit huffy with me, and I noticed that the saliva that was at one side of his mouth was now built up a bit more, bubbly and a little bit white. He urinated on the way back in the house as well, which in all my years of having BTS, has never happened to me.

We'll be taking the interaction down a couple notches, as I think I my have blown his mind a bit taking him outside. He had seemed perfectly fine before, and we've handled him no differently than the first two, which both went fine. I can only guess that the fact that the first two are northern and this one is merauke has something to do with it. I can't get ahold of my sister until a couple days from now or I'd ask about where he came from. That being said, we do not have a vet in the area that can deal with exotics at all. If this is a sign of mouthrot, I'll drive as far as I need to go, but I'd like to get some input before I head out. If this is a simple case of ignorance on my part and it's just a stress sign, I can skip the gas AND the vet bill! I just want it to be known that I'm perfectly willing and able to visit one if this is something that calls for it.

Some other info: He's about 17 inches long, looks very healthy otherwise. No missing toes or damaged scales and does not APPEAR to be wild caught (again, I wish I could call and ask, but for now I can only speculate) but I can't know for sure. He's been eating like a hog (canned cat food at the moment, blueberries, squash, mustard greens with crickets and mealworms for snacks while we work on getting him to associate us with goodies) his enclosure is appropriately sized, heat is perfect, night and day cycle is in place, hides are provided, aspen bedding, etc. Just want to clarify that there don't appear to be any obvious issues with his current environment and care.

So REALLY LONG story short, pooling white substance on tongue sometimes visible when mouth opens, mild white-bubbly saliva when stressed. Is this a symptom of mouthrot?

[Alioop]

First off, being the nerdy mod that I am, I have to say that this was an EXCELLENT post! Too often people come here with questions and give us a sentence or two worth of information. Your post was extremely well-written and informative. So, thanks for that.

Mouthrot typically affects the "lip" area, just inside and outside of the mouth. I've never heard of it affecting the tongue, and if it did, I wouldn't expect it to present itself in the form of a white liquid. The fact that he eats like a pig is a good sign.

Despite your excellent post, I still have some questions (if you already answered these in the first post and I missed them, I apologize).
Is this liquid frothy, like spit bubbles? Or is it thick and milky? Or just watery and slightly translucent?

When you see the white liquid, is it shortly after he's eaten?

I know you say your temps are perfect, but what exactly are your temps? Basking, ambient cool side, and ambient night time temps?

It sounds like you definitely scared the wits out of him when you brought him outside. Some bts handle it just fine, but many seem to go into "wild animal mode" and get very defensive. Being out in the open can be extremely stressful for them. I wouldn't worry much at all about the spit bubbles. They can be an indication of respiratory infection, but it would be combined with raspy/crackling breathing and crusty eyes. Many bts produce saliva bubbles when they get stressed. My Eastern female does it when she's cranky and doesn't want to be handled.

Maybe one of our more experienced members can identify the cause of the white liquid for you. But personally, I don't see any reason to be very concerned and definitely don't see anything warranting a vet visit.

[Sojak]

Thank you! I definitely aim to inform as much as I can, and of course with my BTS's best interests in mind, I want to do all I can to get an informed opinion!

The tank we ended up with was actually tricky to get a consistent temperature in, simply because our other two tanks were so shallow compared to it, so we didn't have to factor in the extra space overall, let alone the temperature loss over the distance from the bulb to the basking area. We've adjusted a bit since though, and we sit at about 97-98 degrees at basking side and around 75-80 on cool side. We keep a warm house and night time sits comfortably at 68-72 degrees. Give or take a couple degrees all around. Could temperature issues be a cause of this? I could shuffle the gauges around, considering placement for them was also a little strange for us, given the tank height. Perhaps I'm not getting the right readings.

As for the liquid on his TONGUE, I didn't see any bubbles whatsoever. It seemed really strange, to be honest. I thought I was seeing things at first, not getting that clear of a view and all, but after the second time spotting it I was just boggled. I wish I could remember a little more reliably whether it was after he'd eaten both times or not, but I can say at least one of those times that yes, he had just finished eating. I want to say yes to both because that's really the only time I see him open wide to begin with. When he's done eating, he'll open up and sit like that for a second or two. Like so:http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m2sy52dPyS1qkdjweo1_500.png. There is a note-worthly "crackling" sound when he does this, but I assume that's just the sound of catfood gravy being sticky and gross in his mouth. "Crackling" seems like the wrong word. Pretty much just the sound you'd get when stirring pasty substances around (like catfood).

The liquid that appeared today at the side of his mouth wasn't foamy, but it was bubbling a little bit. I couldn't describe it as watery simply because it had the consistency to remain in that bubbly little mass without dribbling down his chin, but I did wipe it from his mouth to find that it felt pretty much like you'd expect spit to feel, lol. Pretty slimy. It was noticeably white, though translucent. Definitely not opaque or all that thick at all.

As a sidenote, there's been a decent amount of nose-whistling! I didn't figure they were connected, but I think I should bring it up just in case. No wheezing or labored breathing, just whistling when he's huffing and sniffling around.

Many bts produce saliva bubbles when they get stressed. My Eastern female does it when she's cranky and doesn't want to be handled.

^ This makes me feel quite a bit better. I'd simply never seen this behavior. When you have an animal like this for so many years and never see something, it raises a red flag when it actually comes up, even if in reality, it's perfectly normal. Our Northerns are such gentlemen.

[Fatal_S]

The bubbles definitely sound like spit. Mouth rot isn't a liquid, it's basically an infection/necrotic tissue.

Ex of a nasty case:

[Sojak]

Yeah, I spent a long while googling mouthrot amongst BTS as well as other reptiles. Nothing came even close to looking like what I was worried about, but I didn't want to chance that it might be some early warning sign of it or something.

So I guess the white on the tongue is as of yet a mystery, but as long as it isn't some known sign of oncoming problems, I'll breathe a sigh of relief for now and just keep a close eye out for other issues.

For now we're gonna take things down a few notches and let him calm down for a while again. Thank you guys for the responses. I'll keep you posted if anything else develops.

[Linnea]

is the tongue swollen in any way?

[Sojak]

No, no tongue swelling.

[Richard.C]

excellent obsevation on your eastern ali,they are quite salivery at times like u described

id hazzard to guess the same as ali said,might have been bubbly saliva build up,giving the impression of a milky substance,usually with a respitory infection if they get bubbly drooly mouths they will also get watery eyes/crusty eyes,and also bubbly fluids coming out the nostrils to,go off food ,more lethargic and u will see them breathe funny

mouth rot u will see infection on the mouth,gums ect,just like the pic fatal posted,and a build up of white cheesey substance can form in that area

with out any pics its hard to say for sure,but with your description im leaning towards normal saliva build up,if u want to get a pic of it a good way to do that is get camera ready,and offer your bluey a treat,they open there mouths to grab it so might be possable to get a pic that way,but they are buggers with trying to get pics inside the mouth

[El Lobo]

Reported observations don't seem to indicate the white substance in the mouth to be anything more than saliva. However, if it seems to be a thicker consistency than saliva it could possibly be pus from an infection such as an abscess in the oral cavity or throat. Pus in a BTS will look similar in consistency to toothpaste.

Something that might help when he is taken outside is to place him near a wall or some form of shelter, not in an open position. It should lessen his natural anxiety of being exposed to predators, real or imagined.