Shingleback Love

[Richard.C]

your in a good position to try for it jeff

spot on casey,some are plain difficult to sex,mating and babies helps there,dont give up on the rugosas,they could quite easily suprise you come july,lol,if not you have many more years of them to try

[anchietae]

Thanks Richard. I'm in this for the long haul. My youngest is following in dad's footsteps.

[Richard.C]

nice casey,my 2 year old i think is to,lovin the izzies,lol

jeff deep down i reckon you can,yearlings,im keen to cool mine again and get the next gen happening,i dont have my old pr anymore,i want to test these theories out,my youngest is 3 now though so im behind you there,lol,i have this funny feeling that alex will produce though,she looks in perfect condition for it,definatly went into brumation carrying great condition so your in with a great chance not to mention the female from last season

[Richard.C]

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598_082_1.jpg

hopefully we get to see some pics like this

[Richard.C]

and this

march15 2012 106.jpg

[acanthurus]

Very cool looking shingles.

I have heard several long term breeders advise against rushing things with shingles (a couple keep aspera and one keeps rugosa). They felt it was better was to grow slow and aim to reach almost adult weight by end of first year, fill out a bit more by end of second, with aim to breed by year 3. They felt that breeding too young results in poor long term condition and fertility. To be honest I'm not sure how much truth there is in it, but it's something that I've chosen to follow.

With the uninterested shingles, I wouldn't be too worried. Some males are definitely a bit lazier than others, whereas others will follow the girls around nonstop for a couple of months and lose considerable weight during the breeding season. I've only seen a couple of aggressive males, both of whom were big old and wild caught.

Breeding certainly takes a lot out them. Most of my girls I've seen will breed only every second year, or 2 out 3 years at best. When I've seen them pushed harder with feeding and extending the warming periods they will breed more often, but once again I do believe it has some long term adverse effects.

A second one of my girls dropped this week over the last 2 days. She was massive leading up to this, and over the last few days she has lost a lot of weight from her tail which now looks very flat and deflated. When I found the first baby yesterday I was a little disappointed as I was sure she would have 2 or more, but given the little one was 130g I thought maybe it was fair enough. I was surprised to see her looking incredibly thin this morning and after another look found she had given birth to another 110g baby overnight. I gave her a good feed and drink today, but I think it will take her a while to regain weight. There is still one female for certain yet to drop and another maybe. The certain female is giving all the indications of dropping in the next couple of days and is looking very grumpy with life currently.

Few pics from late this arvo (sorry about the over exposure – my camera hates the light at this time of day
Babies so far


Girl in the middle is one of the mums, the one to the left I didn't think was pregnant but find myself second guessing over these last few days.






In this pic from right to left there is an 8 month old male, 2 year old female, newborn, and an adult male. I will aim to breed the adult male and female in this pic next season.

[Richard.C]

there gorgeous,i dont rush mine generally either,the odd piggy one grows fast but i prefer tolet them take as long as they need,im in no rush to grow them to fast,just think they are quite capable of breeding early,mine normally arent big enough for at least 3 years,and then still have some filling out to do,i never get sick of seeing your goldfields,especially group shots,well done on the bubs,beautiful animals

[Alioop]

Great photos Casey! Those of us who are shingle-less really appreciate when you lucky folks share your awesome collections with us! I hope you'll stick around and keep us updated on their progress.

[Jeff]

I always love to see pictures of your goldfields Acanthurus. They are beautiful. I have heard the same things as yoou about breeding young bts, but whenever I press for more info, the people making the claim that it is not good for the skinks can not provide any evidence to support the assertion. It appears to me that it is a bit of information that has just been passed on for a long time without ever being tested. It sounds logical, so it is easy to believe. Also, most people admit that they have given young shinglebacks the opportunity to breed, but they just haven't had any luck with it.

I have a hard time understanding how you guys are able to prevent skinks from growing fast. I have never power-fed any of my skinks, and in fact I believe I actually feed my skinks less than most people on this forum. I only feed my babies daily for a couple weeks, then twice a week for a couple months. After that, it's once a week. They still grow like weeds. I also know that there has to be a genetic component to how fast, and how big they grow. As an example, my baby rugosa that was born last year (Alex) was fed the same amount as her mother from the time she was about 3 months old. At 4 months of age she was the same size/weight as her mother, and now at 8 months she outweighs her mum by over 100 grams. The mother was born in 2006, and has not grown much at all in the 3 years that I have had her. Alex is a monster, and is already bigger than her mother will ever get.

I also did not cool Alex this year because of her age. Most people claim that it is not possible for them to breed without cooling, and it is quite fine with me if she doesn't breed, but because of her size I am comfortable leaving her with the adult breeders during the breeding season. I am confident that if she is not developed enough for breeding that she won't breed. I have seen how females that don't want to breed are able to avoid it. I am watching closely to make sure that she is not being harassed though just in case.

I am not desperate for her to breed early, and honestly never even considered giving her the oppportunity this year until about the time she reached the size of her mother. At this point I am just letting nature take its course and watching to see what happens. If I had to guess, I would say I am not expecting her to give birth this year.

[xxmonitorlizardxx]

No Meraukes here? Oh well I guess it's not important.

[anchietae]

What a treat this morning! I wish I still drank coffee so I could enjoy a cup while I drool over these Goldfield pics. Incredible animals. It's nice to see so many babies also. Thanks for sharing the photos. I don't think we can ever get enough of those. I will relax about the rugosa. They are young, although I think the female is ready but the male may not be. I appreciate all the feedback and suggestions. There is something unique about Shinglebacks. That incredible personality, all of them unique. My goal is to breed them but if it didn't happen, I would be happy to just keep them. I'm excited about my aspera this year. Richard, thanks for sharing your experience here. You definitely have a nice group also.

I enjoyed your rugosa breeding video, Jeff. I read on another thread that Alex had a stillborn sibling. I've heard of this happening on more than one occasion with Shinglebacks. Any ideas why? That's got to be a hard one to find a stilborn baby. How does the mother react to this?

Anyone here have any experience with a first time female giving birth to twins? I'm making the assumption most young females probably have a single baby their first time around. It's hard for me to imagine by chubby (OK, fat) aspera having room for two bubs.

Casey

Great photos Casey! Those of us who are shingle-less really appreciate when you lucky folks share your awesome collections with us! I hope you'll stick around and keep us updated on their progress.

Thanks! I will definitely be keeping everyone updated!

[scaredofbees]

"It's hard for me to imagine by chubby (OK, fat) aspera having room for two bubs."

From what I've read / been told shingleback anatomy (specifically aspera) is unique in that their internal organs will squish and shift position to make room for the developing young. Females will often be gravid with little change in external appearance which is why regular weighing can be helpful.

Again, this is what I've read and have been told by other breeders. Having not bred them myself (fingers crossed this year), I cannot verify this first hand. I am only an Associate Member of the Secret Society of Non-Australian Shingleback Owners (SSONSO).

... make that a former member. I just broke the first rule of SSONSO: never talk about SSONSO.

[acanthurus]

Sorry Jeff, I wasn't meaning to point any fingers, or say that anyone who does things differently is wrong. I agree that the evidence for growly slow is circumstantial. The best evidence I had was from breeders in NZ who have a very small breeding pool. One keeper has a small group with an adult pair that is over 20 years old, and several offspring. He was able to source another unrelated animal, and had some success with breeding the offspring from there. He has been keeping reptiles for close to 50 years and kept detailed records, including growth rates and fertility. Based on his records the more rapidly grown animals did appear to have lower fertility. I will be the first to admit however that some of his other keeping methods were a little out dated (given the limited information he had available), and this may confound results.

I agree that the idea of slow growing is often difficult to put into practice, esp when they are in groups. Some animals have naturally bigger appetites and are more aggressive when it comes to feeding. My comments were not focused on those that have been raised on healthy balanced diets such as Alex, but on those that I have seen push rapid weight gain through high protein (and fat). Shingles I believe are more likely to show rapid results from high protein than other species, due to their natural largely vegetarian diet, but for the same reasons they are more likely to show harmful effects.

Thanks Casey, I agree that shingles really do seem to have real personality. Of all the species I have kept they are without a doubt my favourite. It makes things very difficult when it comes time to let them go to new homes. With young females, I have found they will often have multiple offspring in their first season, and seem to have naturally higher fertility. The boys do seem to take a while to get things right, maybe down to poor technique Once they do get it right though, things seem to get much easier from there. All of your shingles look in great shape, and if not this year I’m sure it’s only a matter of time. I look forward to seeing pics of your little ones soon!

[anchietae]

"It's hard for me to imagine by chubby (OK, fat) aspera having room for two bubs."
From what I've read / been told shingleback anatomy (specifically aspera) is unique in that their internal organs will squish and shift position to make room for the developing young. Females will often be gravid with little change in external appearance which is why regular weighing can be helpful.

This is what I've heard also as well. Many keepers reporting babies when they didn't know the females were expecting. I'm tracking mine by periodic "weigh ins".

I am only an Associate Member of the Secret Society of Non-Australian Shingleback Owners (SSONSO).

... make that a former member. I just broke the first rule of SSONSO: never talk about SSONSO.

I literally laughed outloud at that one!

Thanks Casey, I agree that shingles really do seem to have real personality. Of all the species I have kept they are without a doubt my favourite. It makes things very difficult when it comes time to let them go to new homes. With young females, I have found they will often have multiple offspring in their first season, and seem to have naturally higher fertility. The boys do seem to take a while to get things right, maybe down to poor technique Once they do get it right though, things seem to get much easier from there. All of your shingles look in great shape, and if not this year I’m sure it’s only a matter of time. I look forward to seeing pics of your little ones soon!

Thanks. I've kept and bred a wide variety of species and I'll have to agree with Shinglebacks being my favorite also. No comparison, actually. I am excited about my chubby little aspera. Maybe I will get extremely lucky and get twins?

[Richard.C]

aspera have had up to 4 babies casey,twins i find is the average though,,my female had 2,1,2,2 a year off then another 2,mine are a rather small form of aspera,in length and bulk

not a former member yet scared of bees,u didnt break the second rule of ssonso,never talk about ssonso

[Jeff]

Sorry Jeff, I wasn't meaning to point any fingers, or say that anyone who does things differently is wrong...

Hey! I apologize if it sounded like I was taking it that way! I was just trying to explain why I haven't bought into some of the claims I have heard 100%. The truth is, I will actually put more effort into trying to grow my next rugosa baby slower, just to see if I can control the growth rate. I will decrease the percentage of protein in the diet. Thanks for all your info. And please keep posting pictures!

[jasjmm27]

Ok...looks like I need to send my aspera to Casey for the special "aspera hormone" in the air and then my rugosa to Jeff for the "rugosa hormone". Ugh...they just sit around like the turds they are at my place...

Great thread and awesome pictures, thanks to everyone for sharing!

[anchietae]

Ok...looks like I need to send my aspera to Casey for the special "aspera hormone" in the air and then my rugosa to Jeff for the "rugosa hormone". Ugh...they just sit around like the turds they are at my place...

Great thread and awesome pictures, thanks to everyone for sharing!

I'll send you my FedEx account number to make it really easy!

Casey