Diet and dog food discussion - Split from Conflicting Advice

[Lea]

Oh, and snails, which thanks to my neighbours having paved gardens and not using pesticides, I am delighted to have in abundance! I sometimes get mealworms, silkworms or crickets, depending on what's up for grabs and looking succulent and they all have a choice of any wild bug, be spider or a 6 legged foe, that happens through their enclosure. I hVe got the odd pinkie, but unless it's still running, my skinks don't even look at it. I'm also a little apprehensive about their quality sometimes and end up just throwing them out. Others have had more luck, I know, I just thi k their quality is bad in this area.

Yes, in south australia, we are spoilt for choice, lol!

[hurricanejen]

I had a friend of mine who is going to school for livestock and farm animal husbandry (I am totally spacing on the name of the degree; Sorry!) take a look at the thread, and she helped correct a few out of date ideas I had about the stuff.
Most of my information about dog food was prior to the big problem with quality control from China; I'm sure a lot of the US folks remember that if they have dogs. I've been informed that a lot of my information regarding quality control etc may have been true years ago, but it is not the case now.

I understand what you are saying about the dog food regarding health of the animals etc, and again that's why I'm not longer arguing that point. If it works for you and your animals, which it does and obviously works quite well, then Nope can't argue with that. Healthy, breeding, long lived animals speak for themselves!

My original problem, and what I was trying to say when this thread started, is a lot like what Lea stated. Just because it's easy, convenient, doesn't excuse trying to find better options. I don't and likely won't feed dog food because I have a myriad of options to try instead. I keep referencing other species of reptiles because this same argument is the one I have with new owners thinking about them, or owners that have gotten lazy. If that is what is going to happen when you get a pet, why get it in the first place? If you want ridiculously easy in the diet department, get a crested or a leopard gecko. Leo gex do great on just mealworms and supplements, ask the big breeders, and cresteds can survive on just a powdered diet alone.
However, that little paragraph in no way is directed at you gentleman and ladies, the people arguing here again obviously put tons of time and work into a balanced diet for their skinks. I'm talking what is recommended for newbies based on an assumption they'll get lazy.

But the person who has just one and needs advice? Get UVB, a good heat bulb, and supplement on insects. Maybe we're seeing two different sets of people, but when I see people with sick or problem animals, it's far more common in people taking the easy route (dog food) than those who started with a variety of insects and in the end are only feeding one. Spend the money from not buying dog food on a good mercury vapor bulb; those bulbs are fantastic.

Also I did not recommend the pellet diet exclusively, or even as the protein replacement - that was in fact the vet. I said I use it, and like it, and incorporate it as an aspect of my veggie diet. I've had good experience with their other products, and know of several zoos who also use their products. Looking at the ingredients list though, again you're right, ewwww. Lots of vitamins and minerals, though. And it is used at zoos, and I have met numerous people who use it as a part of their animals' diets, with healthy, robust animals as a result. I'll let you know about the lifespan in another 20 years.

Gah, Scott, I keep referencing monitors because they eat the same stuff on the meat side that a skink would if there were no people. What did wild skinks eat before we arrived to feed them dog food?

And haha Lea, my family has the same sort of ideas about my large and ever growing collection. You can come over and be friends with me and my group, everyone I know is just as bad. I need another skink fan to defend them against all the beardie lovers! One friend just got married and his collection got bigger instead of smaller - his wife is doing her master's thesis on bearded dragon mate selection.

[Scotts1au]

hurricanejen I have a 4 year degree in Agricultural Science - wanna talk about raising animals? ... .

[hurricanejen]

THATS the name of the degree! I think...She studies in particular livestock and the care involved.

And I love that topic. Not my field of study or anything at all to do with what I do for a living, but I think it's a truly interesting field. Props!

[Jeff]

First I would like to say, that while I do not hang out on forums all day, there are a few that I at least read regularly pertaining to the different animals I keep. I don't think I have ever seen a discussion/debate on another forum go on this long without deteriorating into name calling and childish behaviour. It makes me happy to be able to have "arguments" on this forum like adults.

I also want to add that I still think that I have not communicated what I am trying to say well. I have never had any intention to critisize anyone for feeding their bts a healthy diet that does not include dog food. If you are willing and able to do that, you have my full support. I also always want to remain open-minded about improved ways of doing things. I think when I tried to point out that many things that were brought up in this thread have already been tried, and they did not produce better results than dog food, it got interpreted as me saying it is wrong to try to improve the lives of our animals.

My frustration comes from the way dog food occassionally gets labeled as horrible and unhealthy for bts. This claim is always made without substantiation. It is just a feeling that some people have, and it frequently gets put forward as fact. My hope is that at some point there will be a concensus among the vast majority of bts keepers that dog food is ONE healthy diet option for blue-tongued skinks. If you want to use it or not is your choice. I just don't think it is good to give people the impression that they are committing animal abuse if they feed it to their skinks - even as a staple.

Our opinions may vary about what should be "taught" to new keepers about feeding bts. I respect that. I wish I could share the optimism of some, about the competance of the average reptile keeper. I agree 100% that if you aren't willing to put in the time and effort to take care of an animal properly , then you should not have the animal. Unfortunately, that is not something that any of us really have control over. Uncaring and incompetent people do acquire animals that they have no business keeping. I talk to people on occasion that were so excited in the beginning that they cared for their animal better than I could believe. Then after awhile the novelty wore off and the animal's care became a chore that they were not interested in dealing with. In cases like that, if that person is feeding a complex work intensive diet to their skink, the skink is going to suffer. That is one time when I think it is good if people know that bts are truly one of the easiest animals on the planet to feed nutritiously. I like to let people know that from the beginning because I know that many will never seek out that information when they get tired of caring for their animal.

I don't know if that is any more clear, but I don't want anyone to get the impression that I think they are wrong if they don't feed their bts dog food. If you don't feed your bts a healthy diet, then YES, I think you are wrong. I hope that is understood.

[kl]

At this point there is little new I could add to this thread other than to say I also agree that there's no harm when feeding dog food unless you are not supplementing it with other things like veggies, fruits, occasional fresh cuts of cooked meats, etc. I suppose if all you are doing is throwing in dog food at every meal without mixing in other food types then maybe it's not great long term but so would just feeding rodents or pure meat products unless they also were supplemented with non protein items. I wonder if our concern about using dog food is because we think it's not healthy, or, is it because we just feel guilty using something that's quick and easy to use.

KL

[Katrina]

Thank you Jeff - you explained it perfectly, I couldn't say it better.

I definitely don't feed based on convenience for me or cost - my diet choices are based on what I feel is best for my BTS.

Thanks for such an interesting discussion everyone.

[Susann]

I might as well start this with an apology. I’m sorry! This is going to be LONG!
Before I start, I will ask that you not take my simplifying anybody’s points as rudeness. I am not trying to put anyone down, I am certainly not trying to be rude or disrespectful. I am simply trying to say what’s on my mind in as little space as I can possibly cram it! (I may have some deep-rooted issues with not wanting to take up anyone else’s space .....? Wow! Can open, worms, everywhere!)

I personally don't use it as a protein source - I use whole prey items instead.
What concerns me with the dog food is that it's the stuff that's not fit for use in any other way - it's that nasty bit on the slaughterhouse floor, it's the pieces that are too dirty or too rotten.
It's still considered too risky for human consumption, but diseased, several days dead animals, and dying animals are just fine for animal food!

I think you may have a very skewed picture of slaughterhouses. You paint a grim picture with: “nasty bit on the slaughterhouse floor, it's the pieces that are too dirty or too rotten. too risky for human consumption, diseased, several days dead animals, and dying animals.” I don’t know where this image comes from, but it is neither true nor real. Sick cows don’t keel over in the field and get picked up two days later, when the farmer rounds up his herd for slaughter, and go into the mix with the newly killed cows. The dead cows (rotten or fresh) don’t come down on some “assembly-line” with people on either side wielding knives cutting out the prime pieces of meat while by-products fly and land on the floor to be stepped on until some janitor comes by with a broom on Monday morning and gathers up the gory guts and bloody, rank pieces and dumps it into a dog food can. I guarantee ya!

AND. If mice were the size of cows, they would not be processed any differently from cows. There would be mouse-slaughterhouses. If cows were the size of mice, you’d be able to buy them frozen, including ALL the by-product pieces, to thaw and feed your BTS.
So what makes a whole mouse better than a whole cow? Or, why are mouse by-products better to eat than cow by-products?
What’s a by-product? It’s the parts of an animal that people don’t WANT to eat. If mice were the size of cows I guarantee there would be some prime rodent sirloin cuts, AND some parts that people wouldn’t WANT to eat that would go into dog food.

I hate to make the same points that Katrina and Jeff have so thoroughly already made, but there are a few things I would still like to say. Sorry. (woops! let me get that worm back in the can.)
For example, this notion of people feeding dog food because it is easier.

Our pets are not or should not be "inconvenient" to us and therefore the time should be spent to really think about what we are giving them..

For me personally this could not be further from the truth! Believe me, I have thought about what I’m giving my skinks, I have studied what to give my skinks, what is superior for my skinks, heck I did it for my dogs too! I do not add dog food to my skinks’ diet because it’s easy, because it’s convenient, because it takes less time. I add dog food to my skinks’ diet because I have deemed the ingredients and supplements more superiorly put together than anything I could do without several doctorate degrees.
Fatal’s example shows ONE of the reasons why I add dog food rather than simply cooking up some meat for protein (or simply using whole prey).

It was Brad who pointed out to me that my human-grade meats (esp chicken breast) were terrible for calcium. No matter how much I added the meats were just sapping it all. This led to a huge discussion here. I found out the big breeders tended to use dogfood/veggies/calcium w/ D3. I switched.
Very quickly the skinks started to show improvement. They began growing again, and the lumps they'd had evened out.

I KNOW I’m speaking for more than just myself when I say that I use dog food because I deem it GOOD for my skinks, NOT because I deem it easy for myself.

I like to think of dog food as "fast food for skinks".
Humans may eat fast food, on occasion! If it's done sensibly, there is no harm in giving ourselves the crappy stuff we do. But, eating it as a staple ...

The way I prepare my skinks’ food, I only gain maybe 5 minutes by using dog food. And that would be the RARE time when I’m JUST using dog food as protein rather than cook up some beef, chicken, and turkey and mix it all in with the dog food.

I could turn around and say that everyone with a dog is taking the easy way by feeding them fast food out of a can rather than give them whole rats sprinkled with vitamins, and boiled turkey with homemade pasta and slow-roasted sweet-potatoes. Because dogs would never figure out how to use a can-opener in the wild, they would eat rats and dying cats and dig up yams.
I’m really not trying to make fun of anyone, just trying to make my point with some humor.

I think the biggest thing to realize is that we aren't saying feed dog food because it is easiest on the keeper. We recommend it because it has been very successful as a large part of their diet for many, many years. It isn't something that is better or more convenient for the keeper at the animals expense or because we haven't heard of other options or what varanid owners are feeding.

I now recommend it highly to beginners because even if they don't stick around and post and learn Ca:P ratios, oxalates, goitrogens, the merit of various veggies and the best and worst fruits to feed - even if they buy the BTS on a whim and don't really learn enough to care for it properly, if they feed a diet based on dog food the BTS will get decent Ca:P ratio, it will get lots of various vitamins and nutrients and it will be the simplest diet I can recommend that will have the most success. I recommend dog food because from what I have seen it is idiot proof - keep it simple and most people will be able to do it, even if they don't research or grate up squashes.

Amen!

I get bored, I try a new food. "I wonder if they'll eat caterpillars... pellets... snails... box turtle food... pasta..."
(and yes, turns out they will eat pasta)

...somehow this little game of “let’s see what else we can get him to eat!” reminds me of a game I used to play “with” my little brother...

Whether it comes out of a can or out of your own boiling pot I think maybe we all can do well to be open to different view-points (which this thread certainly has offered!) and be slower to assume.

[hurricanejen]

Jeff - I've been in and out of forums and typically avoid them like the plague for that exact reason. High fives all around for the ability to be adults on the internet!

Susann - I already pointed out a discussion with a friend studying livestock agriculture where she explained to me that several of my points regarding the quality of product used to make pet food. I found it interesting that she noted the picture I painted was outdated, not untrue. There was a time the knacker collected dead and dying animals and used those for dog food. Animals do sometimes end up dying in the field; it doesn't necessarily mean the farmer's a bad farmer, but statistically sooner or later out of a few thousand cattle some of them are going to get sick or die.
Happily that type of dead animal is no longer used as dog food, and that entire point is rendered invalid.

There also IS a movement to feed dogs a more 'natural' diet - Raw diets, or BARF as it is also called, is considered by some to be the absolute best thing you can feed your dog. Prior to my current job I worked at a schutzhund training kennel - dogs fed the raw diet were some of the sleekest, shiniest, healthiest looking dogs I had ever and have ever seen. At the time there was considerable debate as to whether the diet itself was just that much better, or if it was just the extra fat available that was making them shiny, but I am not up to date on it these days. According to the raw diet feeders yes, we'd be taking the easy route feeding our dogs such a processed diet as pellet and canned dog food.

I think there were initially some misconceptions, on my own part especially, about the emphasis on dog food. I'd like to note that maybe it's worth it to suggest to newbies more of an emphasis on a varied diet than strictly to include dog food - my impression from the forum and from this discussion as well was that it was used as the primary source of meat in the diet. I went to check the caresheet and see what it said there and interestingly it actually says to use cat food, sparingly, and instead incorporate a variety of insects and even people meats. Also...
"While it's true that blue tongues eat some carrion in the wild, our processed meat is a little different than the natural way of things—hormone injections, unsanitary slaughterhouses, you name it."
I should have re read the care sheet at the start of this.
"if you do decide to use a little bit, the important thing to remember is that "all natural" type brands are best. Check your health food stores, and don't buy the cheap stuff at Wal-mart."

I kind of want to open up a new thread around what I read on the caresheet regarding supplements. From my experience and looking at the diet recommended, unless an immense level of dedication to finding calcium etc levels in the foods is followed, some sort of supplementation would be essential in that diet. My job and my hobby is reptiles, and even I don't have what it takes (nor can always find the foods necessary) to be comfortable completely eliminating a multivitamin from being used occasionally in the diet.

hurricanejen wrote:
I get bored, I try a new food. "I wonder if they'll eat caterpillars... pellets... snails... box turtle food... pasta..."
(and yes, turns out they will eat pasta)
...somehow this little game of “let’s see what else we can get him to eat!” reminds me of a game I used to play “with” my little brother... God help us

I don't think I play the game with quite the same intentions you may have...

How did the first person to feed dog food figure out that their skinks would eat dog food, if not by trying new foods with them? Just saying, what's intrinsically wrong with bringing home new reptile foods for my omnivorous reptile to try?

Please also scroll and see the post of my skink attempting to eat concrete. I already went over the whole pasta thing.

Aaaaanyway, again, I think we have established that the entire debate stemmed from some outdated information and some misconceptions based on an incomplete picture from reading the forums. Jeff, in all, your last post was excellent and I agree with you. There's nothing I can argue with there!
In general, everyone, this has been a great discussion, and if I could I'd shake all of your hands!

[Alioop]

I kind of want to open up a new thread around what I read on the caresheet regarding supplements. From my experience and looking at the diet recommended, unless an immense level of dedication to finding calcium etc levels in the foods is followed, some sort of supplementation would be essential in that diet. My job and my hobby is reptiles, and even I don't have what it takes (nor can always find the foods necessary) to be comfortable completely eliminating a multivitamin from being used occasionally in the diet.

It has been recognized that the caresheet on our beloved forum is a bit out-dated, and some very awesome, dedicated people are working on updating and providing information based on more current keeping methods. (I.e.- Fatal's story about mbd issues after feeding cooked lean meats as the caresheet recommends). I think a lot of keepers (myself included) now supplement with a multivitamin (only occasionally, every 5 feedings or so probably). If you've got some information about supplements you'd like to share, definitely do so. That way we can consider the information during our caresheet update.

[Alioop]

Whoops... forgot I had more to add.

I remember awhile back one of the members asking about feeding the raw dog food diet to their skinks. For the life of me I can't remember who it was, or if they ended up trying it... or if they gave us a review after they tried it. Does anybody else remember that thread? Or did I just make that all up?


*edit to add:
Found it:
http://bluetongueskinks.net/forum/viewt ... w+dog+food
Sounds like it was determined that raw food would be fine, but just not worth the trouble and no obvious benefit over using good ol' canned dog food!

[James Wilson]

I am one of those that used to feed a fairly complicated diet. I never had any health issues, but too have found that good quality dog food works great as a major component of my skinks diet.

[critterguy]

I think their is actually a risk of overdosing bluetongues on vitamins on a mainly dogfood based diet.

[Katrina]

I think their is actually a risk of overdosing bluetongues on vitamins on a mainly dogfood based diet.

Which vitamins and why?

The best info I can find on vitamin toxicity, in the Reptile Medicine and Surgery text (Mader et al), only talks about Vitamin A, D and Zinc toxicity. For Vitamin A, the info is based on chelonians and overdose can result in inappetence, full-thickness skin sloughing, secondary bacterial infection, discoloration of skin and lethargy. Treatment is ceasing Vitamin A, fluid and nutritional support and possibly antibiotics. For Vitamin D, it says that daily requirements for most mammalian vertebrates is 10-20 IU/kg body weight, but minimum daily requirements have not been established for any reptiles. Symptoms of toxicity are dystrophic calcification of gastrointestinal tissues, kidneys, lungs, blood vessels, and joints. For Zinc, it says Zinc deficiency is much, much more commonly seen than toxicity. It seems like symptoms of Zinc toxicity has only really been seen in cases where iguanas or a snake ingested objects (pennies) containing Zinc.

I'd love to hear more if you have better information.

For the raw food - I've tried feeding raw food intended for dogs to the skinks, they liked it. It was kind of chicken patties with the organs, bone meal etc in it. I am done my first batch and will probably buy more. I also feed on occasion green tripe meant for dogs: http://www.tripett.com/Home.html I would probably feed this more often except that it smells awful. All but one BTS loves it so I feed it once in a while for variety. I still feed a fairly complicated diet but mostly because I have the desire and means to - I know most won't and I don't think it is necessary.

Jen - like Ali said, the diet part of the caresheet is quite a few years old and not really in line with what people are currently recommending on the forum unfortunately.

[Richard.C]

i think the topic is based on the old days when folk used to feed there animals minsed meat,fatty and lacking in nutrients,i did it many years ago as well,mixed with other stuff to,usually mixed veg,i started using dog food prodominatly for my skinks,some for over 16 years now,which still breed and produce healthy babies and no signs of mbd,weakness gout or anything like that,it works for me,and has over many generations of skinks

i dont think its the be all and end all way of doing things,theres many different strategies folk use to feed there charges,some heavily vegie based,some use whole animal foods ect,but alot of the anti based on pet food i belive stems from the old days when they were fed mince,bannanas,raw egg,that sort of thing and not kept with the same equiptment we have access to these days,saying dog food is unhelthy ect with out personal years of actually keeping animals fed primarilly on it,breeding them,raising there babies to adults and then breeding those and so on and so forth with out any diet related health issues isnt totally fair and definatly cant be classed as fact,i should also point out i dont use uv lighting and generally dont supplement there food either

some food for thought

[acanthurus]

Hi all. Good discussion! Hope you don't mind my 2 cents. Sorry if I repeat a few ideas from others but I'm sitting here waiting for a plane and haven't had a chance to read through in detail.

I have been through a couple of different phases when it came to feeding my tiliqua. I tried them on wet dog food and then on raw roo mince and found no difference with either. At the moment I am using ground dry dog food mixed in with food which they seem to enjoy.

Personally I think in the end I think that focusing on protein sources or comparing tiliqua with other reptiles such as Varanus is likely to miss the most important aspect of their diet - namely the 85% that comes from fruit and vegetables. Protein is a minor part of the diet, making up about 15% for adults. Compare this to monitors who's entire diet is carnivorous, and therefore choice of protein is much more important. Tiliqua like dogs are designed to be omnivorous and this is why the are better equipped to digest the fillers in dog food. The same argument can be made for calcium and other nutrients which in tiliqua come from the vegetable content therefore making that from protein much less important.

I'm having some trouble with my iPhone so I hope this makes sense. I'll try and explain my opinion better when I get home later today.

[valentyt]

So, I don't see dog food on the care sheet which I have been using as a guide. I am glad I stumbled on this thread. My skink eats a varied diet of veggies and feeder insects(gut loaded and dusted) but I'd like to incorporate some dog food also. What would be the best brands? Any inexpensive brand in the supermarket, or are there specific brands that are better?

[valentyt]

Oh, wait. I read it yet again and it does mention dog food but recommends cat food over it for palatabilty. But it doesn't sound like anyone is having trouble getting their skinks to eat it. And only high quality (which usually translates to expensive, right?). Having read the whole thread, dog food seems like a good choice; from some of the posts it looks like the "cheaper crap" might be better?? I'm confused. If anyone can clear it up, I would appreciate it!

[Katrina]

Acanthurus - great to hear you opinions.

Valentyt - the caresheet is unfortunately a bit out of date, and most people on here wouldn't agree with all of the diet section. This diet chart is a bit more up to date, and has dog food on it: http://bluetongueskinks.net/foodchart.html I think the caresheet recommending cat food over dog food because it smells better is Zach's personal opinion, although most people chose dog food the majority of the time because a dog's diet matches a blueys better and there is no added taurine. Yes, some people recommend the 'cheaper' dog food. Basically, something like chicken breast is just muscle meat. Good source of lean protein, but it doesn't have nearly the amount and variety of nutrients as the entire chicken would. It is missing all the calcium in the bones, the iron and other mineral in the organs etc. So, it is fine to feed chicken breast, but you still need to feed lots of variety so that they get all of the nutrients that aren't found in chicken breast in their diet. But there is definitely an advantage to feeding whole prey items, like mice or insects - they have all of these nutrients, whereas certain parts of them only have certain nutrients. Cheaper dog food would use more of the whole animal - so more bone meal, organs etc. While most people would prefer just the nice, human grade cuts of meat for their dogs, there is an advantage to feeding the cheaper stuff to blue tongue skinks because it is more like feeding a whole prey item and has more calcium and other nutrients. Does this make sense?

This is a good thread because it shows how there are lots of different ways to feed a bluey a healthy diet. You don't need to offer dog food, but it is a very good option.