breeding,cycling,pairing and all that thread

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Richard.C
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breeding,cycling,pairing and all that thread

Postby Richard.C » Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:42 pm

ok guys,thought this may be an interesting thread

to start off,going off the bluey bible in regards to waking males first to shed in time to meet females breeding window ect ect ,i know thats not the only way,particularily with blotchies,so thought we could start a thread on ways people are going about it

im going to do threads for a few species in the other sections,but thought it would be good in here for a one thread fits all thing and to show different ideas and ways we go about it


please post thoughts and ideas
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Re: breeding,cycling,pairing and all that thread

Postby Richard.C » Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:02 pm

ok,to start off,indoors with blotcheds and stumpies,they have been in groups so lights on after brumation and both awake at same time,stumpies you dont have to wake males earlier though,but blotcheds apparently you do,i never have,yet they successfully bred

i think its because of my climate,bloody cold,brumation outdoors is at least five months,and they are awake and feeding for a good 8 weeks before any mating behaviour is noted

indoors,uninsulated tin shed in my instance,back ground temps are low,so they arent fully heated even with a hot basking spot offered,some still spend time down the cool end,but they bask and eat and all that and dont mate until the outdoor ones do,marginally earlier but not much

i think in warmer climates,av temps are higher so back ground temps are higher so they start maring not long after warm up,so if under that cycle,waking males sooner becomes important

watching the blotcheds outdoors,and even wildones,same with easterns to,both sexes wake up at the same time,but they have that time between wake up and mating where temps can go either way,still cool nights,ect ect,prolonging the time between wake up and onset of mating

i used to shut lights off on june 1st, then rurn back on anywhere from july 1st to mid july,and all years mating was started generally oct, but anywhere from late september to early dec at the extreme,acerage late oct early november

i dont offer night heat,so nights are srill quite cold on average

anyways,from my observations and my climate,the cold keeps them from mating for quite a while after wake up,even if they are active and males woken with females bred successfully many times,can only put that down to a long dispause period

hoping a few species may paint a lighter picture for me this season,as ive skew iffed brumarion times all over the shop for experimentation which i plan to keep notes of
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Re: breeding,cycling,pairing and all that thread

Postby Richard.C » Sun Jul 29, 2012 4:33 pm

room temps have been between ten and 14 this week,still a bit cool,the westerns are still trying to brumate i think,so ive covered screen lid to see if i can raise the temp.

the blotchies are reasonably active,eating a bit to,males shed,as did female but nothings happening there yet,thankfully the northerns have kept me entertained,lol

speaking of northerns,the male that lives in with the 2 females ive yet to see mate,hes supposedly a good breeder,best ive seen is him chase the prince regent female,and grab her,then loses interest and goes cruising,i guess theres always the chance he mates the 2 females when im not about,but have never seen scarring,only from other 2 males,hes always lived withfemales and bred like that with previous owner

might house him alone for next season,gives more control,lol

yesterday the fiesty female was trying to get the big male interested,slowly walking up to his face,licking it,gently nudging it,and gently biting at his cheek for around 5 minutes,he was showing no interest,then all of a sudden he just grabbed her and eventually mated her,never seen that in northerns before,though think she may have tried before

the other day i put both big males together to see if i could get them in the mood,and they went nuts,the speed and power of them was amazing,both got a quick head bite in before i could seperate them,didnt get them in the right kind of mood but definatly woke them up
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Re: breeding,cycling,pairing and all that thread

Postby kl » Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:53 pm

I was taught to wake up the male blotchies first, wait for them to go into the blue, and then wake up the females. Once the male shed, you start introducing the female. Although I will say that this has not worked as well for me with other BT species.

Kim
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Re: breeding,cycling,pairing and all that thread

Postby Richard.C » Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:47 pm

Yeah kim,seems to be a western and blotched thing,ive heard easterns to,i have done that with the blotchies and both sexes together as well for experimentation,the males do shed before they show interest in most cases,even outdoors,there is just a huge difference in when they shed after wake up and then start mating which id say is temp average related
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Re: breeding,cycling,pairing and all that thread

Postby Richard.C » Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:50 pm

My northerns tend to shed,the males,towards the end of when they are mating the females,or after they show no more interest,they have never shed first
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Re: breeding,cycling,pairing and all that thread

Postby pisces20 » Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:59 pm

Hi all,
Great thread on breeding. I thought that I might add that with my easterns of which I have many, the males always wake first around mid July. Within a week they shed or shed long before the females come out. Once the females come out which is second to third week in August, all the males have shed.Females wont shed until they are two to three weeks gravid with some not shedding until after they have given birth. I tend to use this phenomenon for sexing males and females that are coming into maturity. Most are finished breeding by second week of September for babies from end November to early January.
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Re: breeding,cycling,pairing and all that thread

Postby Jeff » Mon Sep 24, 2012 7:33 am

Pisces, How many times on average will each your scincoides copulate when you wake them this way? Also, what is your average litter size?

All of this info is very interesting, especially to see that people have success doing things differently.
6.10.9 T. s. intermedia
2.2.7 T. s. scincoides
1.2.1 T. nigrolutea
2.2.0 T. r. rugosa
1.2.3 T.g. keyensis
2.0.5 T.s. chimaera
0.0.0. T. occipitalis
0.0.0. T. multifasciata
http://www.btskinks.com
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Re: breeding,cycling,pairing and all that thread

Postby kl » Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:25 pm

Richard, what is the typical brumating requirements for Westerns? I'm trying to decide what other skinks to try and breed. I've temporarily given up on the Keis due to the fact they require very warm (upper 70's) brumation temperatures. That temp is too high for me when I have to keep the room in the lower 50's for the other species. I was forced to use 24hr a day heat sources on the Kei cages and they started getting RI infections when they were still too cool. It takes a lot of heat source to bring large cages up by almost 25 degrees. I did not feel comfortable sleeping at night when I had high wattage lamps on all night. Therefore, I sent the entire group to Ray Gurgi and now I have several cages to fill. He's in Florida where the temperature should be perfect for them and he's had great success with other Indonesian species. He also bred Keis in 2011. At some point maybe I'll try again when I'm better able to provide the right climate for them.

KL
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Re: breeding,cycling,pairing and all that thread

Postby pisces20 » Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:18 am

Hi Jeff,
Sorry if I misunderstood your question, but I am assuming that you are asking once woken how many times do the females copulate before they are over their cycle. Most females will go 14 to 18 days and coplulate almost every day if the male is willing. Since the upper end animals are not left together continuously, I introduce a male every second day until four or five copulations have occurred. It depends on the size of the female but the litter sizes have been from 8 to 23 young. I also sometimes multi male if I have a certain pairing I want done and limited females. Once their cycle is finished( easily seen when they become rounded in shape), signals ovulation, and males can no longer grasp them. Every season I do the same series of introductions. hope this is what you asked.
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Re: breeding,cycling,pairing and all that thread

Postby Jeff » Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:56 pm

pisces20 wrote:Hi Jeff,
Sorry if I misunderstood your question, but I am assuming that you are asking once woken how many times do the females copulate before they are over their cycle. Most females will go 14 to 18 days and coplulate almost every day if the male is willing. Since the upper end animals are not left together continuously, I introduce a male every second day until four or five copulations have occurred. It depends on the size of the female but the litter sizes have been from 8 to 23 young. I also sometimes multi male if I have a certain pairing I want done and limited females. Once their cycle is finished( easily seen when they become rounded in shape), signals ovulation, and males can no longer grasp them. Every season I do the same series of introductions. hope this is what you asked.


Yes, that is exactly what I was asking. Thank you, and sorry for not being clear. This is very helpful.
6.10.9 T. s. intermedia
2.2.7 T. s. scincoides
1.2.1 T. nigrolutea
2.2.0 T. r. rugosa
1.2.3 T.g. keyensis
2.0.5 T.s. chimaera
0.0.0. T. occipitalis
0.0.0. T. multifasciata
http://www.btskinks.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Bluetong ... 846297977#
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Re: breeding,cycling,pairing and all that thread

Postby Richard.C » Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:09 am

Kim i the westerns started brumating with warmth still,but stayed down cool end,i pulled them out and chucked them in a large tub with 3 landmullets with no heat,was quite cool,the land mullets also did the cool end thing with heat,stopped eating and stayed in cool end,so shut them down to,its quite cool here so even with a decent basking spot temp,cool end is room temp,which is often in the 8 to 15 range over winter

Havnt seen any mating with either yet,westerns are shy when im watching,landys are worse again,i saw male western grasp at female once,but was half hearted and he went cruising cage again,but have noticed he has scuffing on his noggin and front legs,so possably tries when im not around

Time will tell i guess
,
Cool westerns like stumpies,wake males early like with blotchies,i struggle getting temps right until it warms outside,so mine often dont follow that rule of needing to wake male early
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Re: breeding,cycling,pairing and all that thread

Postby kl » Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:58 pm

I'm struggling with what species to try and add to my collection. While I know many people want me to concentrate on Blotched, I like some variety. Blotched would always be my primary species to work with (as long as my breeders stay healthy) but I want to see if I can accomplish anything with other species as well. I have very limited experience with trying to breed other blue tongue species. As for the Land Mullets, when I lost one of my trio earlier this yr, it just about destroyed my potential to ever breed them. I am not sure if the remaining 2 are actually a pair and the odds of finding another one to add to the group would almost impossible. It's not going to happen. There's only one other one in the states and only a handful of aging animals in Europe.

KL
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Re: breeding,cycling,pairing and all that thread

Postby Richard.C » Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:04 pm

Do u cool landys as cool as blotchies?they are pretty cold hardy

If you want to try other species and room temp suits blotchies,especially cooling,any of the more temperate forms would be good,i reckon you would do well with stumpies,but yeah plenty of choices,just varies to availability over there,dont give up on the landies,they are shy buggers,hard to tell what they have been up to,mine seem to only come out when im not about,except my old one,but even its timid

I hope u find more king skinks to,be good to see more success with them,one of my faves
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Re: breeding,cycling,pairing and all that thread

Postby kl » Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:34 pm

I keep the mullets slightly warmer during brumation. They are shy but these have been with me for 7 yrs now and they are both shy and inquisitive at the same time. The problem with them is they refuse to breed.

Kim
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Re: breeding,cycling,pairing and all that thread

Postby Richard.C » Fri Sep 28, 2012 10:15 pm

K,not sure what my 3 have been up to,a couple seem to have skuff marks so fingers crossed,wish they behaved when i watched them,at best they freeze and watch me

Dead oppasite to the kingskinks are landys,seeing me makes king skinks active and at glass
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Re: breeding,cycling,pairing and all that thread

Postby Jeff » Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:33 am

kl wrote:I'm struggling with what species to try and add to my collection...


I would LOVE too see you get some occi's Kim, but I have no experience with them, so I don't really know how compatible they would be with the temperatures you cycle your blotched at.

I do think that rugosa would do very well with cooling temperatures very close to the nigrolutea though. I would THINK that the westerns would experience very similar temperatures to the shinglebacks in the willd, so they SHOULD be easy to maintain with the blotched.

Hopefully you will get that shed done soon so that you won't need to worry so much about whether or not all of your animals require the same temperatures!
6.10.9 T. s. intermedia
2.2.7 T. s. scincoides
1.2.1 T. nigrolutea
2.2.0 T. r. rugosa
1.2.3 T.g. keyensis
2.0.5 T.s. chimaera
0.0.0. T. occipitalis
0.0.0. T. multifasciata
http://www.btskinks.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Bluetong ... 846297977#
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Re: breeding,cycling,pairing and all that thread

Postby kl » Sat Sep 29, 2012 10:11 am

My issues with temperatures hopefully will be solved soon. I'm working with a contractor (my father in law) to either section off a part of my current breeding room so that it has 2 sets of thermostats (one cold room, one for more moderate climate species) or build an outdoor shed fully insulated and thermostatically temperature controlled. We are pricing out both ways.

I doubt I'll have any opportunity of getting Westerns anytime soon. Right now there are none to be had and even if one of the 2 breeders in the states ever sell babies (doubtful anytime soon), they would probably be well above what I'd ever consider paying. Shinglebacks would be great to have but from who would I get those from without going broke. The rarer species of Blue Tongues seem to be getting rarer even in Europe so finding any there has not been successful either. None of my friends who attend the Hamm shows ever mention seeing any.

KL
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Re: breeding,cycling,pairing and all that thread

Postby jasjmm27 » Sat Sep 29, 2012 10:55 am

A breeder I know has recently gotten rid of all his Nigrolutea since the temperature requirements are enough different from ALL other Tiliqua that it precluded him from having successful breeding with them.

He has kept, and bred, ALL other Tiliqua (besides the pygmy), so I would tend to learn from him...

I think the only way to really do it right is to section the room off or have separate rooms...though some have been successful with them in the same rooms...I think one of the critical things is humidity, though...

Jeff wrote:
kl wrote:I'm struggling with what species to try and add to my collection...


I would LOVE too see you get some occi's Kim, but I have no experience with them, so I don't really know how compatible they would be with the temperatures you cycle your blotched at.

I do think that rugosa would do very well with cooling temperatures very close to the nigrolutea though. I would THINK that the westerns would experience very similar temperatures to the shinglebacks in the willd, so they SHOULD be easy to maintain with the blotched.

Hopefully you will get that shed done soon so that you won't need to worry so much about whether or not all of your animals require the same temperatures!
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Re: breeding,cycling,pairing and all that thread

Postby Richard.C » Sat Sep 29, 2012 2:05 pm

If room gets cool enough you can breed both tropical and temperate species,harder with temperate species in a warmer room though,there is the option of tubbing them up elsewhere for cooling

I breed northerns and hosmer skinks in same room ive bred blotched and stumpies,even monitors which i keep hot year round

What i like bout uninsulated shed is fluctuations in temp,not set conditions,for cycling tropical species i dont do anything,,its almost like natural conditions,temperate forms slow down and some start brumating even with heat still,though more consistant if you shut them down

Sectioning off a room might be best of both worlds

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