BLUE TONGUE SKINKS

I have been thinking lately, and do YOU think that Blue Tongued Skinks are capable of love and hate?

I don't think they are capable of either. Reptiles simply don't love their owners, and I don't think they could care less if we died. However, I think they are capable of fear, excitement, and angst, among other feelings. IMHO, love and hate are not one of them.

They definately have feelings of security/insecurity, stress, anger, hunger etc. I don't think they form what we would consider to be emotional attachments associated with fretting for a human etc. They aren't social animals. However I believe these feelings of security extend to recognising individual humans through familiarity to the point of recognising an individual person as someone who may or may not pose a threat. I have the experience with my blotchies that if they are handled a bit by one person they definately react by trying to run away etc if handled by other people.

I don't feel I have the right to say what any animal can/cannot feel. I read a book recently (Wesley the Owl) and it really made me think about how much credit we do or don't give animals. So I won't make any assumptions about my friends; I will simply give them as much love and attention as I am capable of, and be happy with whatever I'm given in return.

Good points Mel, actually after I wrote that I thought about shinglebacks pairing and joining up with each other each year. mmmmmm

We may never know

I do agree with you Mel~ We have no right. But I do think we can make an educated guess. Possibly has anyone noticed behavioral changes when you are gone, when other people are caring for it, or in the case of Easterns and shingles, when a fellow cage mate dies?

I think they have many basic feelings, feelings related to needs mostly (hunger, stress, cold, feeling unhealthy etc)
if a bluey is treated badly by someone, id think it would start to be defensive, and/or aggressive in a harmful way. i wonder if the latter could actually mean hate?

my bluey accepts that i pat his head and look at him, even if there is no treat involved. it holds no meaning or value to him at all if you count the feelings of "needs", so i think there is some sort of extra feeling to make up for the annoying human :/

my bluey is not signalling "social behaviour" unless he believes there is food for him or he might be able to go outside, and then it is just a show to get what he wants. but i think it must make him very happy or he wouldnt continuosly work on finding new "signals" i react to so that he will get treats....its really basic like climbing or staring and flicking his tongue in a certain way. but he makes some kinda connection in those moments.

so about love and hate....i dont know. i strongly believe blueys have an adequate level of feelings and intelligence combined, they do not always make good choices, and actually i believe it is just for fun sometimes......
heres a good example of doing something completely illogical that will not achieve anything other than that he gets to dig a little more and work harder:

I definately believe Skeeter recognizes when it is me holding him vs. someone else (he is more skittish when being held by others) Skeeter reacts to my voice - he comes out of hiding when he hears my voice.

Is this simply a reaction to the feeding person being around - or something else? Personally I think it is the latter- he reacts differently when he sees his feeding dish. And, when he comes out of hiding from my voice, he dosen't hide again for awhile; even when he realises he isn't getting food.

Of course, my scientific side says it is a bunch of hogwash. Thankfully I don't always listen to my scientific side

This is somewhat of a perennial on a pet forum and has certainly had a lengthy airing here in the past.

Unfortunately, some scientists and quasi-scientists root the argument solely on the basis of accusative anthropomorphisation, without acceptance of the equally compelling intellectual argument of sentience. We will each decide the level at which our own pets display various behavioural traits in our eyes and undoubtedly there will be times we will overreach on our interpretations, but that does not mean we are always either right or wrong.

In my opinion, it is a mistake to compare what one creature thinks/feels to what another thinks/feels. Every animal is a unique individual that has a unique potential to think and feel. It is wrong to discount an animal who is realizing it's full potential to relate to it's keeper simply because it has less cognitive ability than another animal. That would be the same thing as thinking one human is "better" than another simply because he/she is better educated.

I keep a number of reptiles and mammals. Every one of them is different, and some give me much more response to my care for them than others. I love those responses, but I love the animals that aren't capable of giving me the same response just as much. I think a lot of it really comes down to realistic expectations.

Something just occured to me...

How many years ago has it been that the medical community said of all people in comas have no idea what is going on around them...and now a days we are learning that many do.

Also, how long ago was it that dolphins were thought of stupid fish?

So, who is to say that down the road we don't realize that these wonderful creatures do have a capacity for love etc?

Of course - this isn't the reason we love them

In the past this forum has been very much against anthromorphizing animals.

This thread reminds me of a 2008 thread regarding happy-noises and whether a BTS could feel pleasure. At the time majority opinion was that the skinks could be annoyed, but not happy.

Fatal_S wrote:Really, if you're BTS eats banana instead of kale, are you going to say it only does that because it hates the banana less?

(This was one of the first people noting that some skinks making little noises as they do certain things. LINK)

Now we seem to agree that BTS have some pleasures, but we're wondering what other emotions they may have. It's great to see the forum evolving.

It is useful to do a google search to look at the concept of the reptilian brain. Of course the base function control doesn't explain all reptile behaviour and each individual is different, each species is different, capabilities etc. but in general the fundamental elements of the reptilian brain as similar. The desire of us human types to transpose our thinking, emotions, thoughts onto other things (be the animals, objects etc) are functions of our own complex brains, our life experiences, prejudices, thoughts, fears, higher needs is interesting in itself but ultimately the results of processed thought, resulting from a miriad of complexities associated with our incredibly complex brains. Just a thought.

the males get kinky and the females play hard to get,get cranky,make the males check there butts,oi,does this skin make my buttlook big,the males often get females on the mind and everything else goes blank

hard to argue that they dont feel what humans feel,lol

they live in communities of sorts,guard there territories,make it known if they are peed off,should i go on,they get happy and unhappy,how do they get stressed if they dont

exactly what goes through there minds is hard to say,without being in there shoes so to speak,butdo they have feelings,of course they do

i do belive they have feelings no doubt.. some species and individuals express them differnt then others as do most things in life from my experince with shinglebacks i find that they like to be handled much more then any other species infact im sure they enjoy it (from my experience)they are reluctant to return to there encloser and they stick to there partner like a fly do they feel safe? do they feel happy??.. also i have observed there natural perception of danger seems to be alot more off for example all my reptiles are scared of my dog but of course the shingleback walks right up to it and licks it on the face haha a fearles breed they are..but back to the topic we can never know to what extent they can or cant feel but i do belive they have more feelings then somone would initially think..

I believe Wyatt (my Bluey) has feelings of "hey, she's the person who feeds me and takes care of me and lets me do whatever i want (within reason) when she's around" which makes him pretty happy. idk if it's exactly love, but it sure perks him up to see me sitting on the couch 5 feet away from his cage.

Obviously it's a very subjective subject. But having known skunks that very clearly enjoy being scratched in certain places even to the point of being lulled o sleep , if we are comparing skink emotion to human emotion, then I do the same thing anth.
d thoroughly enjoy when my head is scratched or hair played with.

One could easily use this as an argument that a slink is certainly capable of enjoyment and since they also learn to seek out the source of this enjoyment (ie the human fingers) on could argue that
this implies a form of bond.

Just don't expect your skink to purposly give you head scratches as well...

Lucifer_Spades wrote:Just don't expect your skink to purposly give you head scratches as well...

haha I don't even get that from my partner. :-)

Scotts1au wrote:

Lucifer_Spades wrote:Just don't expect your skink to purposly give you head scratches as well...

haha I don't even get that from my partner. :-)

Obviously you haven't learnt to ask properly then. ;-p