Are pinkies really bad? Nutritonal values of prey...

[critterguy]

http://www.rodentpro.com/qpage_articles_03.asp

Pinky mice seem to have the highest protein content and lowest fat content. They still are fattier than reptilian/amphibian prey items that Tiliqua would be more likely to get their jaws on.

[WanderingChai]

I'm not an expert by any means but I would never feed "pinkies" as a main food source. When I feel Tea Cup is big enough(MAYBE her 2nd birthday coming up) she will probably get treated to a pinkie. I feel like if you really want to feed pinkies once a month max.
Again, I am no expert. I just would not suggest pinkies as a regular(or even really weekly) food source.

[Katrina]

Just a reminder for this forum, that when replying please have reasons or evidence for your answers - not just feelings. We want these discussions to be more advanced discussions, and it is great that we are getting more and more good topics to discuss lately.

It is really great when people explain that they aren't totally sure or they aren't an expert... but for this Advanced Discussion Forum please stick to FACTS and EVIDENCE not feelings or inklings. Thanks everyone.

[Spindown]

I feed pinky mice and occasionally fuzzies about once a month or less, because most of my blueys looove live food items! I would really like to find data on the old question of if pinky/fuzzy mice are better than pinky/fuzzy rats though. I've heard rats have more calcium over mice, but not sure if this is true.

How does one find this info out? Google is for once, NOT being my friend.

[acanthurus]

When it comes to protein sources, whole vertebrates have more nutritional value than for example mince meat. However pinkies will have more fat than lean mince, or most dog foods. They have a better calcium to phosphorus ratio than almost all insects and in much larger amounts, esp if you can get them a little older (i.e. weaners).

Nutritional comparison (most data from Melissa Kaplan's site)
Cricket : Protein 22.3%, Fat 30.2%, Ca 0.23%, PO4 0.74%
Pinkie Mouse: Protein 13%, Fat 8%, Ca 1.60%, PO4 1.80%

If you follow the very helpful link from critterguy it gives similar values, and gives data for a very wide range of other nutrients.

It is important that any protein source does not make up the bulk of the diet, as most of what they eat should be vegetarian. With that in mind I don't see anything wrong with pinkies as part of a balanced diet, and would support the argument that they are a better choice in many ways than insects.

[critterguy]

Acanthurus: Precisely. The analysis on the rodentpro site unfortunately does not give a clear picture of how Ca-P ratios change during the life of a mouse/rat, although as shown the values for calcium do go up somewhat as should be expected as the skeletal system develops a bit...the percentage is similar to...actually slighty more than that of most dog foods. Lets use http://www.mulliganstewpetfood.com as a "normal dog food" since it turned up first when I googled dog food nutritional analysis. Anyhow, since dog foods need to provide a total diet for dogs most should provide similar levels of essential nutrients(of course, their will be certain formulas higher in protein or lower in fat such as senior formula or active formula...as well as different protein sources).

Canned food(note here most of what you have is of course water) Typical Guaranteed Analysis:
Crude Protein (min) - 8.5%
Crude Fat (min) - 6.0%
Crude Fiber (max) - 1.5%
Moisture (max) 78%


a dry food(with a more complete nutritional analysis unlike the canned food)
Crude Protein, minimum 26.0%
Crude Fat, minimum 10.0%
Crude Fiber, maximum 8.0%
Calcium, minimum 1.0%
Phosphorus, minimum 0.8%
(this is a Ca:P ratio of 1.25...I doubt dog foods of various brands stray too far from this ratio...another brand I looked at does a CA:P ratio of 1.5:1)

Protein/fat percentages in diet.

If we look at canned dog food we notice it actually has quite a lot of fat compared to the amount of protein(a lower protein: fat ratio). Much more than a comparable dry food(2.6:1). Dry food also has higher fiber. So if we suppose that more protein and less fat is good then the canned diets we are feeding are skinks don't match that. Mice in comparison contain much more protein/fat in the same amount of food. But the protein to fat ratio is higher, esp. in pinkie mice(which are supposedly the most fatty!).



Calcium-Phosphorus ratio as well as amt. of Calcium in diet.



Snakes clearly are doing just fine on a ca-p ratio of 1.73:1 for mice and 1.77:1 for rats, providing they are eating adult rats.

I don't know how much calcium lizards ought to have in their diet(since the total amount of calcium as well as the Ca:P ratios need to be taken into account.

But here is the nutritional analysis of Zoomed Bearded Dragon food.

Crude Protein 16.0% min
Crude Fat 2.5% min
Crude Fiber 16.0% max
Moisture 13.0% max
Ash 10.0% max
Calcium 0.8% min
Calcium 1.2% max
Phosphorus 0.4% min
Sodium 0.3% max

So we can see here that the Ca:P ratio is higher(3 in this case) but this is not attained by adding higher amounts of calcium to the diet, but rather less phosphorus. As is to be expected for a diet designed for adult beardies their is rather low protein and very low fat compared to the above posted dog food.

-C'mon guys this took some time to put together-thoughts would be much appreciated!