Looking to buy...

Buying? Selling? Requests? Post them here. BTS ONLY!
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Ashley1983
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Looking to buy...

Postby Ashley1983 » Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:29 pm

My daughter wants a BTS. We know nothing about subspecies. This will be a first-time reptile experience. But she never asks for anything so I’d like to be able to give her this. Her birthday is at the end of the summer so perfect timing for breeding as far as I can tell, right? Would prefer something on the lower end of the market. I don’t really want to spend $400. TIA.
KeyBlu422
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Re: Looking to buy...

Postby KeyBlu422 » Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:26 pm

Hi, I'm going to be getting a bluey during the summer too. All the Indonesian sub species of blue tongue skinks require at least 40% humidity with higher the better. Substrates for them to use include Eco earth, cypress mulch, Repti bark or soil, or a combo of humidity retaining substrate. For Australian skinks such as northern, Eastern, shingle backs, and blotched skinks, aspen is a pretty good choice but there are a couple others available. Go with the aspen that isn't very splintery. Australian skinks don't really need humidity, a water bowl is usually fine. People such as reptile mountain tv use moist hides but I'm not 100% sure if that's necessary. As for price, all the cheap blueys are primarily Indonesian species such as meraukes, normal Indonesians, halmaheras, Iran jayas, kei islands, tanimbar. However, they often are wild caught or "captive bred". What you want to see is CBB(captive born and bred, just captive born could mean a wild caught pregnant skink who gave birth in a "farm"). So, you may have to get your skink demited and ridden of parasites which means a bit of change for vet bills. If you go with Indonesians, meraukes are known for great temperaments and I've heard good things about Iran jayas too. If you think the cost is too much, and you're willing to feed everyday, a beardy such as a leatherback bearded dragon, is soft skinned and cheap(and really friendly as well). Blueys on the other hand can be fed dog food, protein, and certain kitchen meats for protein sources. Beardies do best on just insects for protein. Blueys only need to be fed every day or 2 days until they're 6 months of age according to Jeff, a reputable breeder here on the forums, he also has cheap northerners with last years off spring costing only $325 plus shipping. i don't remember the rest of the feeding schedule. But another blue tongue feeding chart says to feed every day until 3 months of age.
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Re: Looking to buy...

Postby kingofnobbys » Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:46 pm

I suggest looking for a breeder who has either Northerns , Easterns or Blotchy BTs .

Not likely to be supporting the illegal poaching of BTS from the wild which is rife in Indonesia (and very cruel to the captured skinks , many never survive being stuffed in socks in luggage in order to be shipped illegally to the USA & EU. Buy a captive bred skink from breeder. even better find a breeder and put your name down for either a baby BT (about 4 weeks old) or a juvenile, or a holdback, or a surplus breeder.
This way you'll be able to see it's parents (and get good idea of what it will look like when it becomes an adult, it's also more likely to be friendly and quite tame from the getgo (whereas a wild caught skink who has learnt to fear humans and been treated cruelly by the smugglers will be hard work to tame and get to trust humans - can be done , but will take a LOT of time and patience).

Decide what you are going to buy , and it's age (size) and make sure you have a suitable sized tank ready and setup with correct zone temperatures, basking spot temperature, appropriate levels of UVA & UVB for the species (provided via either a good MVB or a good quality T8 or T5ho tube of appropriate UVB rating mounted in a reflector hood (UNDER THE LID)) and correct relative humidity levels and test everything to make sure everything is right (humidity , temperatures) BEFORE you buy the skink.

IMO a baby or juvenile BT is the best bet, as it will be easier to train and to bond with and will be less set in it's ways and less likely to come with hidden health issue due to poor diet , inadequate housing and poor husbandry before being sold.
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Re: Looking to buy...

Postby KeyBlu422 » Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:57 pm

kingofnobbys wrote:I suggest looking for a breeder who has either Northerns , Easterns or Blotchy BTs .

Not likely to be supporting the illegal poaching of BTS from the wild which is rife in Indonesia (and very cruel to the captured skinks , many never survive being stuffed in socks in luggage in order to be shipped illegally to the USA & EU. Buy a captive bred skink from breeder. even better find a breeder and put your name down for either a baby BT (about 4 weeks old) or a juvenile, or a holdback, or a surplus breeder.
This way you'll be able to see it's parents (and get good idea of what it will look like when it becomes an adult, it's also more likely to be friendly and quite tame from the getgo (whereas a wild caught skink who has learnt to fear humans and been treated cruelly by the smugglers will be hard work to tame and get to trust humans - can be done , but will take a LOT of time and patience).


I would agree, but sometimes meraukes can be too good to pass up(and there are a couple breeders of meraukes). The sucky thing is holdbacks are usually a bit more expensive. And, some breeders don't have waiting list so hooking up with the their Facebook account would be a good idea since the skinks do go fast. Lastly, remember that blueys live even longer than many reptiles such as beardies, they can live in their 20s+ while beardies usually pass around the late single digits or in their teens. So, if you think your daughter may lose interest, be ready to take care of it for a while, I myself lost interest in my beardy for a while but then remembered that, as the owner of my beardy, it is my responsibility to take care of it and even spoil it at times.

Also, exporting blueys from Indonesia isn't illegal but has been in Australia for many years.
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Re: Looking to buy...

Postby KeyBlu422 » Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:03 am

And, UVB isn't necessary and many breeders have breed blueys without it but some decide to play it safe anyway. Going with either route is fine but if you choose to go with no UVB, be sure to dust properly and with d3. Go with a good multivitamin such as herptivite too.
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Re: Looking to buy...

Postby kingofnobbys » Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:30 am

KeyBlu422 wrote:And, UVB isn't necessary and many breeders have breed blueys without it but some decide to play it safe anyway. Going with either route is fine but if you choose to go with no UVB, be sure to dust properly and with d3. Go with a good multivitamin such as herptivite too.



That is IMO bad advise and COMPLETELY INCORRECT . All BTS require UVA & UVB .

Some only require a 5% UVB , others such a Northerns require 10% UVB.


You can't feed the skink VitD3 , it has to get this from exposure to UVB and from dietary calcium.
There is a difference in how synthetic vitD3 and naturally form (by the body) vitD3 behaves in the body of animals.
Synthetic vitamin D3 lacks the transporters and co-factors associated with naturally occurring vitamins because they have been “isolated” , isolated vitamins cannot be used or recognized by the body in the same way as the natural version.
Furthermore the synthetic version of Vitamin E is often referred to as the dl- form. The dl- form is a combination of the d-form (which, by the way, is the naturally occurring form) and the l-form. A reptile's body doesn’t actually use the l-form- it is excreted or the fat soluble vitamin D3 in their synthetic form are especially dangerous because they can build up in the fatty tissues and cause toxicity. The reason that the synthetic form is more dangerous is because they can result in a high, concentrated serving of the vitamin rather than the amount that the reptile would produce with exposure to UVB.
Vitamins A, D, E and K are all fat soluble.


Please don't rely on what I read on the internet as a lot of the stuff about skink care is wrong.
Refer to good references such as "A Guide To Australian Skinks In Captivity" by Dr. D.Brown BVSc BSc who is a recognized expert reptile vet and zoologist. Indonesian BTs also require UVB , they are known to find sunny spots to bask.

And if you another reference : https://www.kellyvillepets.com.au/pages ... ue-lizards
and other : https://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/thr ... vb.201981/
and https://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/thr ... ng.202038/
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Re: Looking to buy...

Postby KeyBlu422 » Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:27 am

kingofnobbys wrote:
KeyBlu422 wrote:And, UVB isn't necessary and many breeders have breed blueys without it but some decide to play it safe anyway. Going with either route is fine but if you choose to go with no UVB, be sure to dust properly and with d3. Go with a good multivitamin such as herptivite too.



That is IMO bad advise and COMPLETELY INCORRECT . All BTS require UVA & UVB .

Some only require a 5% UVB , others such a Northerns require 10% UVB.


You can't feed the skink VitD3 , it has to get this from exposure to UVB and from dietary calcium.
There is a difference in how synthetic vitD3 and naturally form (by the body) vitD3 behaves in the body of animals.
Synthetic vitamin D3 lacks the transporters and co-factors associated with naturally occurring vitamins because they have been “isolated” , isolated vitamins cannot be used or recognized by the body in the same way as the natural version.
Furthermore the synthetic version of Vitamin E is often referred to as the dl- form. The dl- form is a combination of the d-form (which, by the way, is the naturally occurring form) and the l-form. A reptile's body doesn’t actually use the l-form- it is excreted or the fat soluble vitamin D3 in their synthetic form are especially dangerous because they can build up in the fatty tissues and cause toxicity. The reason that the synthetic form is more dangerous is because they can result in a high, concentrated serving of the vitamin rather than the amount that the reptile would produce with exposure to UVB.
Vitamins A, D, E and K are all fat soluble.


Please don't rely on what I read on the internet as a lot of the stuff about skink care is wrong.
Refer to good references such as "A Guide To Australian Skinks In Captivity" by Dr. D.Brown BVSc BSc who is a recognized expert reptile vet and zoologist. Indonesian BTs also require UVB , they are known to find sunny spots to bask.

And if you another reference : https://www.kellyvillepets.com.au/pages ... ue-lizards
and other : https://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/thr ... vb.201981/
and https://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/thr ... ng.202038/



So you're telling me that a breeder on the recommended list who's not used uvb in his many years of breeding is completely incorrect? I know synthetic vitamin d3 is not as good but uvb isn't necessary.
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Re: Looking to buy...

Postby KeyBlu422 » Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:31 am

kingofnobbys wrote:
KeyBlu422 wrote:And, UVB isn't necessary and many breeders have breed blueys without it but some decide to play it safe anyway. Going with either route is fine but if you choose to go with no UVB, be sure to dust properly and with d3. Go with a good multivitamin such as herptivite too.



That is IMO bad advise and COMPLETELY INCORRECT . All BTS require UVA & UVB .

Some only require a 5% UVB , others such a Northerns require 10% UVB.


You can't feed the skink VitD3 , it has to get this from exposure to UVB and from dietary calcium.
There is a difference in how synthetic vitD3 and naturally form (by the body) vitD3 behaves in the body of animals.
Synthetic vitamin D3 lacks the transporters and co-factors associated with naturally occurring vitamins because they have been “isolated” , isolated vitamins cannot be used or recognized by the body in the same way as the natural version.
Furthermore the synthetic version of Vitamin E is often referred to as the dl- form. The dl- form is a combination of the d-form (which, by the way, is the naturally occurring form) and the l-form. A reptile's body doesn’t actually use the l-form- it is excreted or the fat soluble vitamin D3 in their synthetic form are especially dangerous because they can build up in the fatty tissues and cause toxicity. The reason that the synthetic form is more dangerous is because they can result in a high, concentrated serving of the vitamin rather than the amount that the reptile would produce with exposure to UVB.
Vitamins A, D, E and K are all fat soluble.


Please don't rely on what I read on the internet as a lot of the stuff about skink care is wrong.
Refer to good references such as "A Guide To Australian Skinks In Captivity" by Dr. D.Brown BVSc BSc who is a recognized expert reptile vet and zoologist. Indonesian BTs also require UVB , they are known to find sunny spots to bask.

And if you another reference : https://www.kellyvillepets.com.au/pages ... ue-lizards
and other : https://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/thr ... vb.201981/
and https://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/thr ... ng.202038/



That Aussie python forum literally list people who've gone without uvb for their skinks for years without issue.
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Re: Looking to buy...

Postby KeyBlu422 » Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:33 am

http://btskinks.com/northerns

Also, why woundnt the skinks go for sunny spots? They need to bask too. While the sun is basically a natural MVB, emitting uvb and heat, the skink wouldn't necessarily be attempting to get uvb. Reptiles can't exactly separate uvb and heat so when it's basking it will end up just receiving both, not necessarily meaning it actually was searching for a uvb source as stated earlier
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Re: Looking to buy...

Postby KeyBlu422 » Sat Feb 24, 2018 2:56 pm

Here kingofnobby. If you would still choose to provide d3 the way you do, and it works, that's great. But the use of uvb isn't entirely neccesary, as repeatedly stated before. And, uvb and dust with d3 or just d3 instead of uvb and no d3 seemingly did better in that study in the forum listed. I would also like documented examples of health problems that have arised as a result of following the bad "care guide" advice.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=23314
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Re: Looking to buy...

Postby kingofnobbys » Sat Feb 24, 2018 9:17 pm

KeyBlu422 wrote:Here kingofnobby. If you would still choose to provide d3 the way you do, and it works, that's great. But the use of uvb isn't entirely neccesary, as repeatedly stated before. And, uvb and dust with d3 or just d3 instead of uvb and no d3 seemingly did better in that study in the forum listed. I would also like documented examples of health problems that have arised as a result of following the bad "care guide" advice.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=23314


Maybe you don't follow the scientific explaination why skinks (and dragons ,and well people too) it's better to get the VitD3 naturally via exposure to UVB, and the risks of Hypervitaminosis D3 if relying on oral (synthetic VitD3) as the ONLY source of VitD3.
More here https://www.beardeddragon.org/forums/vi ... 1&t=232638 and here
In short : The main consequence of vitamin D3 toxicity is a buildup of calcium in the reptile's blood (hypercalcemia). Hypervitaminosis D is a potentially serious condition. It occurs when too much vitamin D (of the wrong kind / synthetic kind) is ingested. See https://www.beardeddragon.org/forums/vi ... 6&t=233592 .

Bluetongues require UVA and UVB.
I suggest you check the numerous examples of skinks who have presented with neurological problems (due to lack of UVA) and MBD due to inadequate UVB despite being given VitD3 supplementation. You are just as capable of googling these as I am , personally, I don't care for the advise given by foreign breeders / petshops regarding the proper care of these skinks (or dragons too) and have provided a link to a very authorative book on the care of skinks in captivity by Dr.Brown who is a highly regarded expert and reptile vet than caresheets what are copies of other caresheets that contain bad advise.

Also bare in mind the big lizard farmers (in the USA & EU) keep their breeding stock in racks of tubs rather than proper full size (stacked 4ft x 2ft vivs) purely because it's cheaper and they can house many more skinks in their shed than they would if they house them properly.

The setups I've seen at breeders' homes here (in Australia) are always either a large outdoor on or above ground "pit" , or a array of side by side tubs on the ground , or stacked 4ft L x 2ft W x 1.5ft T vivs inside the house used as their breeding facility. Only people who breed snakes and geckos use racks of tubs here. So while it may be common practice few BT keepers here in Australia keep their skinks in racks of tubs, they are kept in enclosed outdoor pits (converted Colorbond raised beds) , or indoor in timber vivs complete with UVB tubes or UVB compacts or MVBs and basking globes.
Yes some BT keepers here have their skinks in tanks without UV , but these are very few and when they say it's OK , it is considered poor husbandry and STRONGLY ADVISED AGAINST.

BTW : skinks (and dragons and monitors and crocodiles) can actually see UV and seek it out. Refer to https://www.nature.com/articles/365397a0 . My pet eastern BTs and my dragons when free ranging inside the house all seek out the 26W UVB200 I've mounted in a dome reflector hung from a Komodo lamp stand , the wild water skinks who are currently in residence inside my house also visit the 26W UVB200 , not because it throws heat, which it doesn't, but because they can see the UV(A & B) being thrown off by it and they need the UV.
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Re: Looking to buy...

Postby KeyBlu422 » Sun Feb 25, 2018 2:33 am

kingofnobbys wrote:
KeyBlu422 wrote:Here kingofnobby. If you would still choose to provide d3 the way you do, and it works, that's great. But the use of uvb isn't entirely neccesary, as repeatedly stated before. And, uvb and dust with d3 or just d3 instead of uvb and no d3 seemingly did better in that study in the forum listed. I would also like documented examples of health problems that have arised as a result of following the bad "care guide" advice.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=23314


Maybe you don't follow the scientific explaination why skinks (and dragons ,and well people too) it's better to get the VitD3 naturally via exposure to UVB, and the risks of Hypervitaminosis D3 if relying on oral (synthetic VitD3) as the ONLY source of VitD3.
More here https://www.beardeddragon.org/forums/vi ... 1&t=232638 and here
In short : The main consequence of vitamin D3 toxicity is a buildup of calcium in the reptile's blood (hypercalcemia). Hypervitaminosis D is a potentially serious condition. It occurs when too much vitamin D (of the wrong kind / synthetic kind) is ingested. See https://www.beardeddragon.org/forums/vi ... 6&t=233592 .

Bluetongues require UVA and UVB.
I suggest you check the numerous examples of skinks who have presented with neurological problems (due to lack of UVA) and MBD due to inadequate UVB despite being given VitD3 supplementation. You are just as capable of googling these as I am , personally, I don't care for the advise given by foreign breeders / petshops regarding the proper care of these skinks (or dragons too) and have provided a link to a very authorative book on the care of skinks in captivity by Dr.Brown who is a highly regarded expert and reptile vet than caresheets what are copies of other caresheets that contain bad advise.

Also bare in mind the big lizard farmers (in the USA & EU) keep their breeding stock in racks of tubs rather than proper full size (stacked 4ft x 2ft vivs) purely because it's cheaper and they can house many more skinks in their shed than they would if they house them properly.

The setups I've seen at breeders' homes here (in Australia) are always either a large outdoor on or above ground "pit" , or a array of side by side tubs on the ground , or stacked 4ft L x 2ft W x 1.5ft T vivs inside the house used as their breeding facility. Only people who breed snakes and geckos use racks of tubs here. So while it may be common practice few BT keepers here in Australia keep their skinks in racks of tubs, they are kept in enclosed outdoor pits (converted Colorbond raised beds) , or indoor in timber vivs complete with UVB tubes or UVB compacts or MVBs and basking globes.
Yes some BT keepers here have their skinks in tanks without UV , but these are very few and when they say it's OK , it is considered poor husbandry and STRONGLY ADVISED AGAINST.

BTW : skinks (and dragons and monitors and crocodiles) can actually see UV and seek it out. Refer to https://www.nature.com/articles/365397a0 . My pet eastern BTs and my dragons when free ranging inside the house all seek out the 26W UVB200 I've mounted in a dome reflector hung from a Komodo lamp stand , the wild water skinks who are currently in residence inside my house also visit the 26W UVB200 , not because it throws heat, which it doesn't, but because they can see the UV(A & B) being thrown off by it and they need the UV.



You know what, I do admit being wrong on the seeking out part. I had known that but tend to say stupid stuff in the heat of the moment. I'm also aware that people choose UVB over d3 because UVB allows for the reptiles to synthesize it in their bodies and that d3 in calcium isn't passable, just like synthetic vitamin a vs beta carotene. As for the breeding racks, I also agree that rack systems arent the best, but there are breeders like the YouTuber reptile mountain tv I think it was who do actually use the bare minimum/little less than bare minimum size enclosure(reptile mountain tv uses 36x18x12 I think it was but I could be wrong. About the UVB again, wouldn't someone be able to argue that those breeders also just went with a Care guide, published it and others followed it? Just kidding, that is a flawed argument. So let me get this straight though, you don't believe American breeders or vets but you listen to Australian breeders and vets? Or you don't believe American breeders who've been in business for years and have studied their skinks to make sure that they're in good condition to breed? Don't you think that, as vets, knowledge and proper care giving tips would be shared amongst each other? I also understand that Uva supposedly helps with behavior, temperament, etc. about the neurological problems, I would like to see some examples. Sure, I tried googling it and found nothing, maybe I'm using the wrong words in search or something. Plus, it's one of the rules when making a claim, be ready to back it up with sites to search from or sources. The only skink I've seen that suffered from neurological problems was a blotched blue tongue who got dizzy when excited. It was some old forum on this site as well. While I myself will be providing a compact uvb(exo terra), I just wanted to state that skinks w/o d3 can be fine. It seems you tend to go with the mindset "I'm right, you're wrong" to the point that you've argued with moderators about uvb positioning (diamc on beardeddragon.org) and told people that cats will absolutely kill their small pet at some point or another even when Rankins(also beardeddragon.org) had mentioned his long history of having reptiles and cats at the same time without issue, it's just a matter of safety and precaution. About sources on those, Well, it's in your post history so I'd figure it's easier to find than me digging up forums I viewed in my history. In all honestly, since we're getting off topic from the posts' topic of discussion and because, based on your profile info, I like what you do in your off time(I like 4x4ing, sort of like fishing, like going to a gun range from time to time, etc). It's a pity that we and many others seem to clash with you(since you do often call others incorrect, misguided, or with a rude manner, though I'm no snowflake so tend to ignore it and you have corrected when I'm wrong which I do appreciate) since I'm sure you're actually a creative outdoorsy person who tries to spread what they think is right to help others in your off time. Lastly, I see you mention pogona barbata. Have you ever kept one or only observed them? I wish I had one even though I know they're relatively similar to centrals.
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Re: Looking to buy...

Postby kingofnobbys » Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:58 am

Take deep breath son. This is not the first time we've crossed swords regarding advise you've sprouted.

Yes I have experience keeping both Eastern and Central BDs , Water Dragons and eastern bluetongue skinks too (my two EBTs are getting up around 9 years old and have never been sick, though my male broke his arm as a juvenile somehow (which was pinned and reset and healed nicely) ).

I actually live in the natural ranges for eastern bearded dragons and eastern water dragons and eastern bluetongues too , and frequently encounter them in the wild , and know many people who keep them as pets and even some people who breed them , I am also on first name basis with reptile keepers at the Australian Reptile Park at Gosford , and yes I've observed their natural behaviours since I was a child , I'm in my 60s and retired now.

I have given you my sources , been objective in my answers , and given you reasonably detailed information.

You need to rely less on the internet for your information (there is a lot of BAD ADVISE on the internet mascerading as "expert advise" and even as care sheets). There are practices that are followed that were once thought to be good but have been proven to be bad for the reptiles. I suggest you invest in some books on the husbandry and care of the species you are interested in and "educate" yourself rather than relying entirely on the internet (google) and word of mouth.

There is no need to resort to personal attacks when you are not able to present valid counter arguments. BTW yes I am not a person who beats about the bush , my approach is to give direct answers and where I see bad advise being given to jump on it , too many Noobs out there who will read posts containing bad advice and will think it's good advise because they don't know any better. I wont loose any sleep over ruffling some feathers by telling people they are wrong.
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Re: Looking to buy...

Postby splashy07 » Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:44 am

I do not want to elaborate or go on for days about what I know. I'll keep it short. I've been in the hobby for 40+ years before the internet and all of it's bad and good advice existed. I know many breeders who keep and have successfully bred BTs in rack systems for 25+ years. I do not take advice from any but the professionals. I go by what I have seen and experienced. I know rack systems are not the optimum for BTs, but some breeders must use them to conserve space, as this is their business. I only use racks for snakes, as I do not breed reptiles because I need the money. My lizard's reproduction is not putting my kids through college, but for some it is. And I wish them continued success. One of my best friends does it for a living, and is very successful.

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