Indonesian species/humidity/RI

[Dakota]

I keep all mine in the low 80's. The more they need to bask, the higher the chance of a respiratory infection. Here even in Florida, humidity under a basking spot is 30%. If you offer a cool side lower than 80, you will see they bask very often. Prolonged periods of being exposed to 30% humidity is not the best idea - especially for Halmaheras. Meraukes tend to be more lenient like IJ's usually, since they are found from lowland savannas to tropical areas. But even when kept in the low 80's, they still like to bask at least a few times per day for short periods.

Good thing there is no one way to keep these awesome guys.

[Susann]

...are you saying prolonged periods at high temps, lower humidity will increase their chance of respiratory infection?

I'm not sure I follow the thought process of them preferring to stay in the hot basking area more when you offer a cooler cool end...

[Dakota]

Focused heat from a heat lamp makes the humidity go very, very low in the particular basking spot. Say if you offer a 70 degree cold side. The purpose of offering a 100 degree basking spot and a cold side of 70 is to allow them to thermoregulate. Usually, unless I'm missing something, they thermoregulate via basking until they get to their preferred body temperatures (mine stop when they reach 85-90 degrees). If their bodies were 70 degrees, they will spend more time to get to this 90 degree preference. More time exposed to the basking area makes more time exposed to lower humidity.

I realize we are talking about Meraukes, a less tropical subspecies of T. gigas.. but whether or not you keep them at 83 degrees or 75, I see no wrong in both. I'm speaking in general for the species as a whole. Offering a huge temperature gradient isn't always best IMO. Especially if we are talking anything lower than 75.

[Susann]

But why would time in high heat, lower humidity INCREASE chance for RI? I've never heard of that combination increasing risk of RI.

And understand, just because you are offering them an area of 70 degrees doesn't mean they often stay there until their bodies have cooled to 70 degrees; just like when you offer them a basking spot of 105 degrees rarely do they stay there until their bodies are heated up to 105 degrees. The idea with OFFERING them areas that are warmer and cooler than their preferred temperature is that WHEN they need to cool down, if they can go to an area that is cooler than they prefer, they will reach their preferred temperature quicker than if they only had an area to choose that's a few degrees cooler than their preferred temp. And vice versa; when they are cooler than they want, if they have an area that is warmer than a few degrees over preferred temp, they will warm up faster.
The other point with offering a temp gradient where the extremes are further apart, is if the temps outside fluctuate more, the chances are smaller that your skinks end up with a tank without an area to cool down or heat up, whichever the case may be; it's a safety thing as well.

Oh, and they don't just thermoregulate by basking to raise their temperature, they also thermoregulate by cooling down.

[Dakota]

But why would time in high heat, lower humidity INCREASE chance for RI? I've never heard of that combination increasing risk of RI.

Stick your hygrometer under your basking area. It reads 20-30% here in Florida - I'd image a lot lower in Utah. Just like when you give Shinglebacks too high of humidity, they tend to get respiratory infections. When T. gigas are exposed to too low of humidity, they also get respiratory infections. Of course there are other variables that play in these infections, but out of all cases of respiratory infections (mainly Halmaheras), they kept them in 20% humidity. Not a single case of respiratory infections when humidity levels were kept optimal. Could be a quinky dink, who knows. But I err on the side of caution to keep humidity levels were they should be. Keeping an animal that rarely, if ever, basks in the wild at humidity levels of 20% when experiencing anything lower 70% is uncommon - problems are bound to arise.

[Susann]

I didn't want Diana's thread showing off her beautiful babies to be muddled up by Dakota's explanations on how low humidity and high heat causes Respiratory illness. I asked for clarification on the statement, but it just got too long to be kept in Diana's thread, so here it is.

[Dakota]

Thank you for splitting this Susann.

From all the people I've talked with that has regularly experienced Tiliqua gigas in the wild (3 people, respectively), none of them have ever encountered them basking. This is counting, but not limited to, Ternate, Ambon, Sorong, Kai Islands, Ceram, Misool, etc. I'm not sure if they have encountered Meraukes in the wild when they all told me this, so I will ask. As a mode of thermoregulation with any cold-blooded reptile, they will bask if they are not hot enough. So, any reptile is bound to bask if they are below their preferred body temperatures. But that is not to say all reptiles bask in the wild, though. Or at least regularly.

Some on one side of the spectrum may say that offering them a cold side of 73 and a basking spot 100 gives them options. And options are good.

But on the other side, some may say offering a cold side of 73 is not only not natural for them, but also forces them to do something they rarely do in the wild - bask.

Halmaheras for example: Found in Ternate, Halmahera, Sorong, Misool, Ambon, etc. All islands and cities rarely getting below 70% in humidity, even in the dry season - if you even want to call it that. Making them excessively bask due to their cold side being the nighttime winter temperatures. Excessive basking is exposing them to critically low humidity levels. Low humidity does not only alter proper respiratory function, but also stresses the animal, causes sheds to stick on toes and eyes, etc.

I know I'm saying this ad nauseam, but that is why offering them higher ambient temperatures would benefit them IMO. Lessens the need to bask for as long, lessens the period exposed to arid air.

[Richard.C]

In hot climates,Indonesian blueys wouldn't need to expose them selves by basking,as say a botched bluey does,in cold climates they are forced to try and raise body temp to there prefer body temp.which in blotchie territory is often don't alto cooler than there prefer body temp,but the sun has a marvelous capability of creating basking areas that way exceed prefer body temps even with quite low air temps,blotchie and easterns raise are very well adapted to that

Indos ,similar to northern blueys ,have access to hot days year round,hot hot days,those hot days create stifling hot basking areas,so you won't often find Indos nor northerns sitting out basking in those conditions,they usually bask very early before heat sets in and have no issue holding prefer body temps during hot times of the day,if anything they reverse thermoregulate by seeking cover to cool off and protect themselves from over heating


I think alto of shedding issues with Indos could be attributed to near on cooking them,keeping them very hot,which also would make keeping them humid alto more critical,its also probably why folk have issues breeding the gigs clan,as they are to scared to cool them enough ,or cool them to much

Remember they have access to day hottNess year round,so can bask all year round,but also in nature the have access to areas to cool off,they aren't restricted to temps in a 4 foot cage running from 82 to 100

Im a huge fan,especially for tropical stuff of providing big temp gradients ,actually more heat than usual right down to less than usual

Usual equally what most folk call normal,it allows you to actually see what they choose,and you would be surprised,they actually use it all

Not offering them choices,is you telling them what to do,when kept that hot it doesn't surprise me they don't bask alot ,that's taking away choices that nature provides them,and they actually use

Taking away those choices for me leads to issues,I've had ri s in northerns trying to keep them to warm or cool them to much over winter,my cold climate probably doesn't help there,but offering the massive temp gradient,zero issues,even when my juvie northern decide to pile up down cool end and brumate for 5 odd months

The have heat but choose the cold spot,if i tried to just offer cool spot id most probably lose them,the beauty of choice is you will over many years see patterns emerge,only they know what they want,so my way of thinking is let them choose

[Dood]

Most reptile Hygrometers are not accurate and to say the humidity under the heat lamp is 20% but 24 inches away it is 70% is fundamentally flawed

most hygrometers sense relative humidity rather than the absolute amount of water present, but relative humidity is a function of both temperature and absolute moisture content, so small temperature variations within the air in a test chamber will translate into relative humidity variations.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygrometer

and this is why the device says the humidity under the hotter basking spot is so low when the actual humidity would be significantly higher

[DianaBlueTongue]

"Not a single case of respiratory infections when humidity levels were kept optimal"

I'm not anywhere near experienced enough to really give any good input here but I just wanna point out that the rescue Halmahera, Pancake, I had taken in last year HAD infact developed a respiratory infection a few month after taking her in despite being kept at optimal humidity and temperature levels.

[Susann]

Dakota, I think you are talking about an ambient temp of 73 with a basking spot. Yes, that would force them to bask more. Never to my knowledge has anyone here suggested keeping like this would be a good idea, so I don't know why you keep bringing up this kind of setting as an example for proving your point...
I'm talking about a temperature gradient; a basking spot (in my case of 105-110), a warm end (my case starting in the mid 90's), and a cool end (my case mid 70's). This gives you the two extremes, but with areas of every temperature in between those two extremes.
Just because I offer a cooler end than their preferred temp does not mean that the lowest temp in the tank is the ambient temperature.

offering a cold side of 73 is not only not natural for them, but also forces them to bask.

Just because I OFFER an end of my tank that's cooler than what we think they "need" does not mean I'm forcing them to bask more. I don't understand your thought process on that. In fact, unless gravid, I RARELY see my Meraukes basking. Like Richard says, that's because they don't need to; they find plenty of areas where they can keep their core temp exactly where they choose to have it. But it is not rare for my Meraukes to spend time on the cool side.

I personally believe that a temp gradient that slightly overshoots (and undershoots) temps on either end, but offers a nice gradient I'm between, is the safer way to keep my skinks; it allows THEM to regulate themselves.

I originally just wanted you to justify your claim on RI's. "The more they need to bask, the higher the chance of a respiratory infection". That's a very absolute statement, and when said without more information than what you're providing can be very dangerous.
First off, do I think it's possible that a Merauke can spend so much time basking at 100 degrees that he receives so little humidity in that spot that he develops an RI? I believe it unlikely, as periodic time spent in lower humidity would not in itself be enough, especially if humidity is fine in the rest of the tank. (However, just like Dood says, getting a hygrometer reading in one spot under a heat source does not portray an accurate assessment, not even in that square fragment of an inch.) Do I believe that a skink basking excessively is trying you tell you he needs something that isn't being given to him? I think that's much more possible. If any skink basks excessively then you may have issues going on that may mean something in your husbandry is off. Or your skink may already be ill.

I do not believe your statement of "The more they need to bask, the higher the chance of a respiratory infection" is true. I'm certainly open to learn things I do not know and things I hadn't thought of, and would like to hear your reasoning behind the statement if you have something more than your thought that the air on top of the basking spot is arid even if the rest of the tank is fine.

[Richard.C]

Good point there with the temp gradient susann

And that's exactly what i do,its not a hot spot and rest of cage cool,its a very hot spot,outside of basking area is still very warm and it the gradually gets cooler the more u move away from hot spot,that's the choice option,mine actually spend more time warming up outside basking area for example ,that's what they choose,and i have alto of option for them to choose from

A cold cage with just a hot basking spot doesn't offer them much choice,nor does a hot cage with a quite warm ambient

Peoples animals that get ri,s could be from many many things,often they say there conditions are spot on but spot on for them or the actual animals

Not offering them choices kind of doesn't really allow you to read what they really want

[Dakota]

Dakota, I think you are talking about an ambient temp of 73 with a basking spot. Yes, that would force them to bask more. Never to my knowledge has anyone here suggested keeping like this would be a good idea, so I don't know why you keep bringing up this kind of setting as an example for proving your point...

Blue tongued skinks require a wide ranged temperature gradient consisting of a hot side, a cool side, and a middle range in between. Regular daytime temperatures on the cool end can be anywhere from the low 70's to the low 80 degree range, and the basking end consistent at 95º to 100º.

Just because I OFFER an end of my tank that's cooler than what we think they "need" does not mean I'm forcing them to bask more. I don't understand your thought process on that. In fact, unless gravid, I RARELY see my Meraukes basking. Like Richard says, that's because they don't need to; they find plenty of areas where they can keep their core temp exactly where they choose to have it. But it is not rare for my Meraukes to spend time on the cool side.

I am not referencing you any, so I do not hope you think I am attacking you. I don't think 75 is all that bad, especially for Meraukes. But it is pushing it for the other tropical species of Tiliqua gigas.

Most reptile Hygrometers are not accurate and to say the humidity under the heat lamp is 20% but 24 inches away it is 70% is fundamentally flawed

I have tested it on 4 hygrometers. Of course if you take the basking spot away 24", the concentrated heat is not concentrated anymore, therefore not depleting amount of moisture in the area. The concentrated heat is depleting moisture under direct light and heat of the basking area. But like you stated: if this concentration is "less concentrated", the humidity will go back to same as the rest of the environment.

I'm not saying a gradient is bad, or "choices" are bad. Just too much is not benefiting your animal at all.

[Dakota]

"Not a single case of respiratory infections when humidity levels were kept optimal"

I'm not anywhere near experienced enough to really give any good input here but I just wanna point out that the rescue Halmahera, Pancake, I had taken in last year HAD infact developed a respiratory infection a few month after taking her in despite being kept at optimal humidity and temperature levels.

I realize I should have reworded this. Previously mentioned, I acknowledge there are many other factors for respiratory infections. Whether they caught it from another reptile, incorrect temperatures, too wet, too dry, stress, etc. But I remember you got Pancake when she was on death's doors, are you sure she didn't have a minor one upon rescuing? Respiratory infections all have reasons or ways they occur, not something that just randomly comes up with no such vector or stimulus.

But of course, I have no veterinarian degree, so I may be missing something?

[Susann]

Dakota.
I really have no interest in doing this drawn out exchange with you where you're throwing out wild, unsubstantiated statements, and when questioned, you either just ignore the questions or you put up some quote by someone else without even taking the time to explain what the quote is supposed to say/prove. It is very arrogant in my opinion and I for one do not much appreciate it.

I have no interest in repeating myself over and over, but in the interest of the well-being of the skinks of the people who may believe your unsubstantiated claims, I have no choice but to sit down and spend a large amount of time trying to get you to explain yourself. When I say that the statement you made without explaining it may be dangerous for the skinks of people who may be newer to BTS keeping, do you understand what I mean?
I ask you to explain your statement that basking causes respiratory infections, and your answer to that is: put a hygrometer under your heat lamp. When I ask you to explain how periodic lower humidity causes RI's, well you choose to ignore it. As if the question doesn't need to be answered. I guess "stick a hygrometer under your heat lamp" is all you're going to say.

You posted these two quotes:

Dakota, I think you are talking about an ambient temp of 73 with a basking spot. Yes, that would force them to bask more. Never to my knowledge has anyone here suggested keeping like this would be a good idea, so I don't know why you keep bringing up this kind of setting as an example for proving your point...

Blue tongued skinks require a wide ranged temperature gradient consisting of a hot side, a cool side, and a middle range in between. Regular daytime temperatures on the cool end can be anywhere from the low 70's to the low 80 degree range, and the basking end consistent at 95º to 100º.

Are you saying that the Caresheet is suggesting have a large area of 73 and the only other temp is a basking spot? I can not imagine that's how you are reading it! So, are you saying that the quote in the Caresheet is proving your point? That can not be it either! Because, had you not cut off my quote where you did, but kept the next part, here's how the two quotes would've read:

Dakota, I think you are talking about an ambient temp of 73 with a basking spot. Yes, that would force them to bask more. Never to my knowledge has anyone here suggested keeping like this would be a good idea, so I don't know why you keep bringing up this kind of setting as an example for proving your point...
I'm talking about a temperature gradient; a basking spot (in my case of 105-110), a warm end (my case starting in the mid 90's), and a cool end (my case mid 70's). This gives you the two extremes, but with areas of every temperature in between those two extremes.

Blue tongued skinks require a wide ranged temperature gradient consisting of a hot side, a cool side, and a middle range in between. Regular daytime temperatures on the cool end can be anywhere from the low 70's to the low 80 degree range, and the basking end consistent at 95º to 100º.

Please explain what you meant by throwing up those two comments next to each other.

I apologize profusely to the rest of you for this posting quotes ad nauseum; I really would rather do this in private with Dakota to spare you my long posts, but since I believe his statement of "basking causes respiratory infections" is potentially harmful, I feel I need to try to get him to explain it.

Most reptile Hygrometers are not accurate and to say the humidity under the heat lamp is 20% is fundamentally flawed
the actual humidity would be significantly higher

I have tested it on 4 hygrometers.

Even though most hygrometers are widely inaccurate, the point is not that the hygrometers don't work, it's that the reading does not portray an accurate reading of true amount of water in the air (=humidity).

I'm not saying a gradient is bad, or "choices" are bad. Just too much is not benefiting your animal at all.

Had you said "I think" or "In my opinion" before saying "too much is not benefiting your animal at all" I would have said that is absolutely true, I have no beef with this statement. Giving our animals options that they will never avail themselves of would not benefit them at all. However, saying that offering them to our skinks forces our skinks to do x, y, and z would not be true either, now would it? If they never go over to the coolest part of the tank, why would they need to bask more? I don't follow that one at all.
If you offer your skink a nice, wide temperature gradient, with places to be somewhat hidden along the tank in the different temperatures, they may very well never go to the coolest parts, or may rarely if ever bask. They have easy options for taking care of their own body functions and preferences in the middle sections.
But should they ever need them, they are there. Say your thermostat or heat mat malfunctions and starts overheating while you're gone; they have a cooler side of the tank where they can hopefully stay safe until you notice what's going on. Or it's just a particularly hot day and you forgot to turn the AC on; they have a cooler side to hang out at that may not be as hot as the place they usually hang at. Of course the opposite is true as well; on a cold day the cooler side of the tank may be much too cold for them, in which case the have both a warmer side (in my case, normally about 10 degrees warmer than their usually preferred body temperature) and a basking spot to keep them warm enough until I notice that the tanks are too cold.

Keeping most of your tank around the 83 degree mark that tends to be their preferred body temperature without much variation besides the basking spot, may very well work perfectly optimally. Even for Meraukes. I don't know because I don't want to chance it. I don't see the point. Because in my opinion, my way of doing it is safer because the skinks themselves have what they need to be in control. Or more in control. But I have no beef with you believing a different way than mine is best. That is perfectly fine. There ARE more than one way of keeping these animals, and most of the time they ARE very hardy.
I would've probably lowered my warm side and basking spot a long time ago to keep humidity better, but when I was the only one for a while there consistently getting Meraukes to breed I figured I'd better not mess with stuff too much. You know?
I do have skinks who have lost toes due to humidity issues and it's my constant struggle, proof that I don't have it all figured out here in the Utah desert.

I am not referencing you any, so I do not hope you think I am attacking you. I don't think 75 is all that bad, especially for Meraukes. But it is pushing it for the other tropical species of Tiliqua gigas.

What does that mean, you are not referencing me any? I do not think in any way that you are attacking me. I do feel you are ignoring my repeated requests for an explanation of your statement. I do feel you are not understanding the difference between a tank with a temperature gradient from 73 to 100 and a tank with an ambient temp of 73 plus a basking spot of 100.
I do think an ambient temperature of 75 is too low for Meraukes AND the other tropical species. However, I do believe a temperature gradient from 75 to 100 is perfect for Meraukes AND the other tropical species.

[Richard.C]

and dont look at gradient as cold,medium and hot

its not 3 temp zones

its a hot basking area and very warm hot end,then a slowly dropping temp zone down to the cool side

sometimes they use cool end,especially in warmer weather,and cold weather may seem them bask more,but its about give g them options,especially if u get variable temps

low 80s cool end to 95 to 100 basking spot gives them sweet diddly squat options wise,they are being forced to use a small temp gradient

wild ones aren't restricted to those types of temps

[Susann]

and dont look at gradient as cold,medium and hot

its a hot basking area and very warm hot end,then a slowly dropping temp zone down to the cool side

Thank you! Excellent point.

[El Lobo]

Behaviourally BTS' are not nocturnal, but are they truly diurnal, or exhibit crepuscular behaviour?

But of course, I have no veterinarian degree, so I may be missing something?

A veterinarian degree is not mandatory to understand respiratory infections.

Now, to really confuse things; some actual science:
'Absolute humidity is the mass of water vapor divided by the mass of dry air in a volume of air at a given temperature. The hotter the air is, the more water it can contain.' [1]

I recall this from a couple of years ago:
Mon May 27, 2013 3:30 pm

I was talking to another breeder of Meraukes, and he says that he thinks they respond to barometric pressure, which is high when a storm comes..

'Decreasing barometric pressure indicates storms, rain and windy weather.' [2]

[1] What is relative humidity and how does it affect how I feel outside? - http://science.howstuffworks.com/dictio ... ion651.htm
[2] http://weather.about.com/od/weatherinst ... meters.htm

[Dakota]

You quote a post from two years ago for what reason? Embarrassment? Because it didn't work. I can't think of a single reason that at all has to do with our discussion. The reason I even continued this split discussion was because I am interested in what others' think on this matter. Not to be insulted, or something likewise.

I'm looking to buy a hygrometer that measures absolute humidity. If anyone sees one reasonably priced, please PM me.

[El Lobo]

Nope, not to embarrass but to note that after two years of regularly posting interpretations of regional weather conditions in Indonesia, knowledge of meteorology does not appear to have advanced.