R.I. and no vet around

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Richard.C
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Re: R.I. and no vet around

Postby Richard.C » Sun May 05, 2013 6:35 pm

pascal paradis,for nights u could try a warm end and cooler end and see what lizard chooses,they often suprise you with what they choose to do

they will go to where they want under those conditions and you have all bases covered so to speak,a few hides in different temp zones helps to
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Re: R.I. and no vet around

Postby El Lobo » Sun May 05, 2013 6:47 pm

Bluish wrote:
El Lobo wrote:I would think that when an exotherm's core temperature drops below that of preferred temperature there is a corresponding slowing of metabolism.


What is a Meraukes preferred core temperature? :noknow:


I don't think it would vary across species. So far as blotchies go my reptile vet suggests a preferred body temperature of 32-33°C.
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Re: R.I. and no vet around

Postby Susann » Sun May 05, 2013 9:28 pm

Dakota Nivens wrote:I believe in Meraukes, to high of night time temperatures can cause signs of RI (or the so called mystery sickness). Maybe dropping the night time temperatures to around 70-73, and raising the basking temperatures slightly.

I'm sorry I don't come on here every day, or I would certainly have addressed this immediately.

I have not said anything about high nighttime temps causing signs of RI. Nor do RI symptoms have anything to do with the so called "mystery illness". What I have started calling the "mystery illness" (because nobody knows what causes it, nobody has found what makes it better, and certainly not a cure) causes inflammation of the eyes, the toes, and sometimes the edges of the mouth. The skink usually has a fairly slow decent, slowly getting worse with slight improvement right after a shed. This is what I call the "mystery illness".
Sometimes the skinks suffering with this have come down with a URI or even pneumonia; I believe because their immune system has been lowered due to long lasting illness, but that is purely conjecture on my part. So I believe the URI is a separate condition, and not necessarily related to the "mystery illness", even though they have sometimes been seen in the same skink at the same time.

To Pascal Paradis I would say that, you need to get veterinary help for your skink. All we can do here is make guesses that may lead to poor suggestions. I am truly sorry you have such poor access to exotic vets where you live, but that is indeed something you have to research and have options for BEFORE your animal gets sick, just like Bluish said. I would even go so far as to say this needs to be part of the process of considering whether or not to get a certain animal. You find a vet that could care for it should something go wrong, you talk to the vet's office a find out prices for exams and treatments, and then have money set aside for vet care. And for younger owners, you also have to have a way to get your animal TO the treatment.
None the less, unfortunately you have a sick animal without a way to get immediate help for it. Right now your #1 concern is to get help for it from the proper caretaker. And keep going from one place to the next until you get that help.

Please let us know how it turns out.
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Re: R.I. and no vet around

Postby Dakota » Mon May 06, 2013 4:41 am

Pascal Paradis wrote:Then would you recommend avoiding night temperature drop while the treatment is in progress?

I can't get nothing right.. :oops:
Just ignore my advice.
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Re: R.I. and no vet around

Postby UroFreak13 » Mon May 06, 2013 8:47 am

Too sophisticated of a discussion for me but i hope it works our for the best
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Re: R.I. and no vet around

Postby Susann » Mon May 06, 2013 9:14 am

Dakota Nivens wrote:
Pascal Paradis wrote:Then would you recommend avoiding night temperature drop while the treatment is in progress?

I can't get nothing right.. :oops:
Just ignore my advice.

Hon, we are just trying to say to the OP that, advice from members on a forum may all be well and great, but the skink really needs a professional to look at it for a diagnosis at this point. And that the professional can say if the nighttime temps need changing depending on what the diagnosis is.
The OP was asking about nighttime drops while treatment is in progress, but to our knowledge no treatment has been prescribed at this point. When he gets the correct treatment he should also be able to get suggestions on what to do about nighttime temps. THEN can members here give opinions on whether the advice from the professional seems right--and we only give opinions on changes different from vet advice because we realize that around here (or there) very few exotic vets have experience with BTS.

And I blame myself for not describing the "mystery illness" better for those who have come to these forums after my in-depth descriptions of my struggles with it; I just wanted to clarify the difference between the "mystery illness" and RI symptoms, as you seemed to have those mixed into one.

We are also trying to tell everyone here to be careful about giving advice unless you yourself have experience with it. Let the experienced people have a chance to answer before all the rest of us jump in with thoughts and what we may have read.
Does that make sense?
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Re: R.I. and no vet around

Postby Spindown » Mon May 06, 2013 9:42 am

I would even go so far as to say this needs to be part of the process of considering whether or not to get a certain animal. You find a vet that could care for it should something go wrong, you talk to the vet's office a find out prices for exams and treatments, and then have money set aside for vet care. And for younger owners, you also have to have a way to get your animal TO the treatment.


I'm am in full agreement with this view. Saves a LOT of headaches in the future.
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Re: R.I. and no vet around

Postby Katrina » Mon May 06, 2013 9:56 am

Dakota Nivens wrote:
Pascal Paradis wrote:Then would you recommend avoiding night temperature drop while the treatment is in progress?

I can't get nothing right.. :oops:
Just ignore my advice.


This is probably a sign that you should stop giving advice on subjects you have no experience with. Especially any kind of medical advice - giving poor medical advice or guessing based on information you heard or read third hand is extremely dangerous and stupid. No one is trying to be mean to you and we understand that you are trying to be helpful, but giving any kind of medical advice online is not a good substitute for seeking qualified vet care. People who have successfully dealt with RI before can offer suggestions or thoughts based on their experience but guesses or suggestions based on something someone read isn't helpful and could potentially be very harmful. We have talked to you about this before - please think before you post and in future, please do not give medical advice if you haven't successfully dealt with that problem yourself.
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Re: R.I. and no vet around

Postby Pascal Paradis » Thu May 16, 2013 4:14 pm

There is a new vet at our local clinic who had some experience with reptile without considering himself a specialized herp vet but he was helpful. The infection, fortunately, didn't spread to the lungs. My lizard is now on baytril, since 6 days, the half of a little pill each day for 30 days. I have yet to notice an improvement in its condition. Analysis will be made if my skink isn't healed and a more appropriate anti-biotic will be used. Though I fear if my skink isn't better after its first treatment, its immune system will be weakened by the baytril and its disease will have worsened. Is there some truth to my concerns? Maybe I should ask for analysis now.
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Re: R.I. and no vet around

Postby Susann » Thu May 16, 2013 4:28 pm

You, or one of your parents, should call the vet clinic and let them know your concerns, and ask them your questions.
Being on an antibiotic does not generally weaken your immune system. If you don't finish the entire treatment, or if you forget to give it too many times, you may build up resistance towards that drug, so it doesn't work next time. But I've never heard of a "normal" antibiotic causing lowered immune system.
I find it a little odd that your vet gave you a 30 day treatment in pill form. How are you giving him those?
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Re: R.I. and no vet around

Postby Pascal Paradis » Thu May 16, 2013 4:55 pm

By oral route. Could a 30 day treatment pose a risk to the health of my skink? I will do just that. These are questions I should have tought to ask during the appointement.
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Re: R.I. and no vet around

Postby Richard.C » Thu May 16, 2013 5:06 pm

i dont think a month long on baytril is a bad thing,normally after a 2 week treatment u go back to vet for a check up,and if still signs another 2 weeks treatment

baytril comes in tablet form?
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Re: R.I. and no vet around

Postby Pascal Paradis » Thu May 16, 2013 5:22 pm

Thank you Richard :D. Thats exactly what I will do. Tomorrow a friend will lend me her camera and I will post some picture of them at last. I am eager to know your impressions.
Last edited by Pascal Paradis on Thu May 16, 2013 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: R.I. and no vet around

Postby El Lobo » Thu May 16, 2013 5:25 pm

A 30 day treatment for a reptile should not be too long. A vet I know who is CertZooMed and specialises in reptiles generally prescribes a 6 week course. However, he will prescribe dosing every 48 hours due to the slow metabolic rate of reptiles. There are a lot of factors to consider with abx including choosing the right one for the condition presented. Baytril is usually the first choice in veterinary practice as it is the one approved for animal use. The only accurate way to discover the bacterium causing the problem is by means of a C & S (culture and sensitivity) where a sample of infected material is cultured and tested against different abx.

To calculate dosage the weight of the skink needs to be known and the strength of the active ingredient in the abx, usually expressed as mg/ml. It isn't a bad practice to check against a reliable source because it has been known for vets to occasionally get it wrong.
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Re: R.I. and no vet around

Postby Susann » Thu May 16, 2013 9:18 pm

Yeah, I don't think there's any risk in giving Baytril for 30 days, I'm just surprised that a medication for a lizard for that many days was given in the form of a pill. Are you putting the pill in some food? What would worry me is, what do you do if he has no interest in eating? Or are you able to prop his mouth open to put it down his throat?
That's why oral medications for reptiles are usually given in liquid form--just a lot easier to make a reptile take a liquid than a pill.
If you're not having a hard time giving him the meds then no need to worry. But if it gets harder, keep in mind that your vet should be able to give you the rest of the medication in a liquid form.
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Re: R.I. and no vet around

Postby Pascal Paradis » Thu May 16, 2013 10:15 pm

Susann-Yes I am putting the pill in a baby food tablespoon and he swallows it without problem. When the vet gave me the pills, I knew it would be easy to trick him into eating it. He never declined food so I feed him every other days. I am amazed by the large quantity of food he can eat. It inspired me to name it ''Vorace'' but I can't give him a name referring to his appetite, so for now he is nameless and I am not even sure he is a ''he''. Thank you for your advice but I hope it won't be needed.

El Lobo- I thought you were a veterinary yourself. How come you know so much about animal medicine? I readed about the risk of broad-spectrum abx on wikipedia and that's the root of my worriness. And I wonder how inaccurate can be the posologie of an abx in pills.

'' As a side-effect, antibiotics can change the body's normal microbial content by attacking indiscriminately both the pathological and naturally occurring, beneficial or harmless bacteria found in the intestines, lungs and bladder. The destruction of the body's normal bacterial flora provides an opportunity for drug-resistant microorganisms to grow vigorously and can lead to a secondary infection such as Clostridium difficile (also known as "C. diff") or Candidiasis (also known as "thrush") in females. This side-effect is more likely with the use of broad-spectrum antibiotics.'' I regret not asking for an analysis to get a narrow-specter abx.
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Re: R.I. and no vet around

Postby Susann » Thu May 16, 2013 11:57 pm

Pascal Paradis wrote:I regret not asking for an analysis to get a narrow-specter abx.

Don't worry about it :) You're doing really good :thumbs:
It's not that a broad spectrum antibiotic lowers your immune system, it can just increase the growth of the bacteria and microorganisms that naturally occur in your body. For example, you might get a yeast infection caused by the antibiotic you are taking for a sinus infection. (Just to put it really simply.)

Baytril is a good and safe antibiotic. If your skink has a bacterial infection, baytril will take care of it. If your little guy doesn't improve, and your vet decides further antibiotic treatment is necessary, there are other antibiotics that can be used. Baytril is just a good, safe medicine to start with.
If it's not a bacterial infection, then no antibiotic will cure it. See what I mean?

I've had vets do different analyses on my skinks, and nothing has ever come back with a positive result--meaning they've never found a bacteria or virus in the samples. The way my vet explained it is that, when an analysis comes back negative, it doesn't mean that it is an "all clear" diagnosis. It means that no bacteria or virus survived until the testing was started. So it's quite possible that an analysis of your skinks mucous may not have told you anything beneficial. I'm not saying it's useless, I'm just saying that you really shouldn't beat yourself up that you didn't have your vet start an analysis. Starting your skink on Baytril is the best thing you could have done. :thumbs:
Now, the next important thing you need to do is make sure your skink gets all of the medication.
And be in touch with your vet if you have any concerns. There is nothing wrong with calling and asking questions, or having them clarify for you what it is you should be looking for.
You're doing great. :D

Make sure his temperatures are good. Check with your vet if you should keep him a little warmer. Sometimes, depending on what's going on, it can be good to keep nighttime temps up a little bit too. But unless your vet tells you differently, make sure your skink is able to get to a cooler place if that's what he needs.
OK?

Thanks for being so thorough. It sounds like you really care about your skink and want to do what's best for him.
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Re: R.I. and no vet around

Postby El Lobo » Fri May 17, 2013 6:00 pm

No, I am certainly not a vet. I have kept pets for a lot of years and have learned things as I go along with the assistance of a few vets who have been willing to explain their diagnoses and answer many many questions. I also read a lot of veterinary papers and have joined some other pet forums.

A very general and simplified response to your concern over enrofloxacin (Baytril). For this purpose abx fall into two categories, bacteriostatic and bactericidal. Bactericidal abx attack and kill any bacteria they come across, both that causing the illness and beneficial gut flora which raises the risk of C.difficile over colonising the gut as that bacterium is resistant to most abx and is complicated by the fact it produces spores that can survive outside the host. Bacteriostatic abx though work differently; they "mess" with the DNA of bacteria preventing it from replicating and allow the immune system (which knows the difference between good and bad bacteria) to do its job of destroying the invaders.

As Baytril is approved for veterinary use it is most often the first prescribed because it is efficacious against both gram positive and gram negative bacteria. It is desirable to commence abx once an infection is diagnosed. A c & s can take several days and does not always provide a clear definition of the infecting bacterium.

Enrofloxacin is a fluoroquinolone abx which means it is bactericidal, although there is some evidence to suggest it behaves as bacteriostatic with gram positive bacteria in larger animals or at lower doses.

Whenever I am treating a pet with abx I like to keep the ambient temperature fairly stable 24/7 during the course to support the immune system.
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