lets talk protein sources

[critterguy]

Theirs been some talk on this in various other threads. But I thought it'd be nice to condense it into one topic. I am by no means and expert btw, just done a bit of reading on these neat creatures-just thought this would kickstart a discussion. I have been unable to find any studies on the diet of Tiliqua scincoides in the wild-but keepers tend to follow different diets. Some feed thm practically as you would a carnivorous animal-others leaning the other way. I'd suspect that a high portion of their diet in the wild is insects/other animals with plant matter making up a relatively smaller portion(also-a lot of it is probably gut contents of prey).

So what do people here generally use?
dogfood-not sure of the Ca:P ratio but it is probably quite good. I know of a few who do not supplement with calcium with it. Also, it contains various vitamins/supplements so some feel it is redundant to use multivitamin supplement w it.

catfood-higher protein content(better for young bluetongues-most people switch to dogfood for older animals). Some claims that excess purines(or the taurine added in) can damage reptilian kidneys(when used to tube feed snakes).

Dry dog/catfood-would love to hear from people with experience using dry food. Seems much easier and less messy than canned. Anyone here use any foods designed for other animals(monkey biscuits, foods marketed for reptiles, etc.?). Seems like pelleted dry foods might be a lot less messy-good for lizards that like to dive into their food a bit too much and get it all over their faces.

chicken/other table meats-chicken at least according to the caresheet does not have a good Ca:P ratio so definetly needs supplementation. also-not added vitamins in it. That being said nothing I've tried so far catches my bluetongues interest flavorwise as much as bits of chicken.

Insects-can be gutloaded. But need calcium/multivitamin dusting(or else extra calcium/MV added somewhere else in the diet). No one can deny many blueys enjoy tracking down and crunching roaches.

mice/whole prey-Don't seem very cost effective, even frozen. Considering snakes do fine on just them I suppose they'd be an ok protein source for blueys(not sure if too much fur would pose a problem). Pinkies and chicks are probably not the healthiest.

Thoughts? Feel free to criticize and in general discuss.
And for the record-my bluetongue is eating mainly canned catfood(will switch over to dogfood shortly) but has had roaches and bits of chicken just for fun.

[Edward]

I'm a huge believer in variety being best. Thus, when it comes to protein sources, my skinks get chicken, lean beef, snails, roaches, worms, canned cat/dog food, chicken livers, eggs, f/t pinkies (only as a very rare treat), etc.
I cook all their foods, by the way. And I virtually never use any supplements.

[Rush]

I agree with Edward. I boil chicken, beef, and turkey and rotate. I also use insects like silk worms and roaches. Snails are awesome as well. I do supplement.

[Coomassie]

I use what is in the house. That is mostly chicken. I tried catfood early on, and Coomassie wouldn't eat it. I also feed insects as a treat. When I have him out playing I will put a few mealworms on the floor with him and he goes foraging. It is actually kind of funny to watch. I would like to get my hands on some snails but I don't have the slightest idea where to look.

[blueyman]

I use canned snails for my group Exo-Terra and Zoo-Med both have them.You can order them form Big Apple Herp Supply.
Be Well - Chris

[Bird_Brain]

Dry dog foods- I started to using this for a short while. They didnt seem to eat it as eagerly. I didnt just give a bowl of dry food. I offered it mixed into the canned and they just ate around it. I also offered it moistened with water. They still didnt care for it. I kinda gave up on it.

As for other processed/pelleted foods made specifically for reptiles, I have used several different types. San Francisco Bay Brand Healthy Herps has been used here when I had just a couple BTS. I have also used several different Mazuri Brand diets. I have used the Iguana diet to mix mix in with dog food to add veggie content. I have also had free samples of the Insectivore diet. I also have a jug of the Carnivores reptile diet/gel. I use that mainly for the Tegu. I really like the Mazuri brand products. I also use their Chinchilla diet for my chins. Buying from their website will hurt the pocket book with shipping. I buy locally from a feed supplier and buy the foods cheaper than Mazuri lists them on their site.

[Katrina]

Good topic - it is always great to have these type of discussions. I think most know that I am very, very slowly working on updating the food chart - I think one of the biggest problems with the current one is that it doesn't include so many of the protein sources that so many people use as staples! I started a thread a while back looking for info like this, so you can have a look at that one and I'll also take any good info from this one and use it when I actually find time to work on the food chart.

I love live feeders as they are a better source of nutrients that just cooked chicken. I feed roaches, silks, dew worms, horn worms and superworms somewhat regularly, I've tried lots of others as well but found that the above are the best received. Stuff like phoenix worms, wax worms etc seem to small to get their interest now.

For convenience you can't beat cat/dog food. I use it occasionally and they love it. I'm still unsure about the cat vs dog food fat / protein content thing - I know it has become kind of accepted that you don't want to feed cat food to adults because of the higher fat content, but in most canned foods I've looked at the difference between the fat and protein for cat vs dog food isn't that big, and often the dog food is higher fat. So I'm kind of unsure if it is really a researched difference or if it made sense and no one really questioned it?? I know it is "no less than" or "no more than", and that would make a difference...
http://www.merrickpetcare.com/store/det ... 52&s=20247
http://www.merrickpetcare.com/store/det ... 15&s=28226
http://www.wellnesspetfood.com/product- ... d-analysis
http://www.wellnesspetfood.com/product- ... d-analysis

I know that a dog's diet better matches a BTS omnivorous diet, but if you're adding greens / veggies I'm still not sure if cat food is really a big deal. I'd be interested to hear others thoughts on this - I still use cat food most of the time because it comes in smaller cans and I don't feed it very often.

I also feed chicken or lean beef quite regularly - if we are having chicken it is easy to set some aside for lizards. And if we're having steak they always get treats. Egg I feed occasionally - not a favorite of theirs, but I use it occasionally for variety. My mom had access to some farm fresh eggs that were very small and I really enjoyed watching the lizards crack them open as if they had stumbled upon a ground nest in the wild!

[Coomassie]

You don't have to worry about samonella feeding raw egg?

[rayuki]

I'm still pretty new so I'm only just now properly extending my BTS's food range. He (or she lol) has always gotten insect treats and supplements but for the longest time he survived on Cat Food but not any including Fish as the breeder I got him off said that the fish varieties are too fatty. I cant add much but I can add that lol. He's happy and healthy and is now enjoying a wider food range

[critterguy]

I have also heard the no fish thing-I would stay away from fish as fish i catfood would most likely be oily marine fish(sardines, anchovies etc.) which anecdotally cause all kinds of issues for fish eating reptiles that they are sometimes fed to rather than, say, FW fish.

Truth to be told-their are quite a few bluetongues owned by 2 well known breeders that have been fed on catfood/dogfood their entire lives who live/breed fine. If it ain't broke-why fix it?

[Bird_Brain]

Truth to be told-their are quite a few bluetongues owned by 2 well known breeders that have been fed on catfood/dogfood their entire lives who live/breed fine. If it ain't broke-why fix it?

I agree to some point. However, I am all for trying new things that are easier and not as smelly! lol. That is my main reason to try to find a good pelleted diet that is reasonably priced and readily accepted by the skinks as well as have the skinks thrive on it. Until I do find that, I will continue with the canned dog food.

[Katrina]

You don't have to worry about samonella feeding raw egg?

I don't - I'm not sure if they can even get ill from salmonella. I know many reptiles are carriers. But it isn't something I've really ever worried about. I haven't heard of reptiles being anything but carriers of salmonella - never heard of them being sick from it. I haven't researched it much, but from what I can tell it isn't a huge concern...

[critterguy]

Reptileking: Exactly. If their is something out there that is more convenient and provides the same nutrition then why not?

While bluetongues readily eat a variety of food-I think current evidence supports that they do just fine on simple diets and any variety is as much for the amusement/fun of the keeper as it is for the health(physical or perhaps psychological) of the skink.

[Alioop]

Excellent point critterguy. I'm with you 100% on that one. Although that being said, I'll probably still provide as much variety as money, time & circumstances allow. If for no other reason than, as you said, for my own entertainment.

[Coomassie]

While I will agree with what everyone is saying, I would argue that skinks definitely prefer certain foods. My skink much prefers chicken over dogfood. If I set two plates in front of him, he almost always goes for the chicken. I gave him a lot of variety until I figured out what he liked. Now, it is basically the same thing with the occasional change if we have something different in the house.

[Bird_Brain]

While I will agree with what everyone is saying, I would argue that skinks definitely prefer certain foods. My skink much prefers chicken over dogfood. If I set two plates in front of him, he almost always goes for the chicken. I gave him a lot of variety until I figured out what he liked. Now, it is basically the same thing with the occasional change if we have something different in the house.

Skinks may have preferences, but I pretty much do what my parents did with myself and my siblings. We ate what was put in front of us. We didn't have a choice. I pretty much do the same with all my animals. I dont give ANY of my animals a choice. If they dont eat what I feed them, then they arent going to eat. By giving animals (including humans) choices, you are just encouraging a picky eater. I find the healthiest, easiest foods that fit my budget.

Now if I do feed something that wasnt a big hit, then I will continue to try again feeding it to the animals. I generally find they come around and start eating it. If they dont, then I just dont buy it again. However, if they dont eat the food I feed, I dont go crazy trying to make up a different plate of foods to try to get them to eat.

Also, I would agrue that by giving your skink a choice, is it really picking the healthiest of the foods? I feel that dog food is better for BTS than chicken (unless whole chicken including bones is used). Are you really helping your skink by giving them choices?

[Alioop]

Excellent point Brad. If I give my blueys a plate full of collard and a plate full of chicken, they'd go for the chicken. Thats why everyone has to mix up their greens with the protein source.

[critterguy]

Advantage to dog food/other prepared foods is that they have supplements added to them already.

[eegore]

I am still learning what Eegore likes to eat. This thread is helpful!

[Fatal_S]

I wish I'd seen this thread when I was a newbie, or that I'd done more research into this. My first year with skinks I fed a whole variety of foods, and my skinks did very well.

My second and third year my diet was narrowed down to mainly cooked-chicken with veggies/greens/fruits added. Unfortunately this seems to have led to severe MBD in some of my skinks (Tanimbars) and even my other species are not growing as quickly or looking as healthy.

For this past half-year, once I saw what my diet had been doing to my skinks, I've changed it completely. My skinks are now on a mainly-dogfood diet for protein, and a whole variety of veggies. I also feed F/T rats when I can, and eggs and other random proteins sometimes. Fruits are a rare treat now, not part of the diet. I now also supplement regularly with various things just to add more variety to the nutrients they're getting. My older skinks have bounced back and are doing very well on this diet, and my younger (2 y/o) skinks are slowly recovering from the lack of nutrients my diet had.