Centralian T. maltifaciata advise?

[TiliquaHabitat]

Good day all,

I am a reptile keeper from South Africa with a big interest in Australian herps and of course BTS. I regularly browse this very useful site but until now I have never felt the need to post. I currently have an opportunity to purchase a group (quad) of Tiliqua maltifaciata which like in the US are very rare and expensive in SA. I will only go through with acquiring this group if I know for sure that there is breeding potential. The current owner believes that there is at least one female in the group. Knowing how difficult BTS are to sex in general, I have consulted with my local exotic animals vet to do an ultrasound on these animals in hopes of determining their sex. Two of the animals in the group are 5 years old and the other two are 3 years old, so they should be mature enough to see mature follicles in a potential female with ultrasound. I have been struggling to find good information on this species pertaining to specific husbandry and breeding and was hoping that some of the members on this forum could help.

I have a list of questions below which I hope some of you might be able to answer for me?

•These animals might have been imported from Europe (Northern hemisphere) to South Africa (Southern hemisphere) but have been in SA for at least a few years now. In this case would these BTS still be suitable for breeding in South Africa?

•Can T. maltifaciata be kept in groups unlike other BTS? The current owner keeps them all together and has not noted any aggression. I have seen that some breeders of Trachydosaurus rugosus in Australia keep them in big groups in outdoor enclosures without problems of aggression and fighting and was wondering if Centralians might be the same?

•Does T. maltifaciata need to hibernate or brumanate in order to breed successfully and would there be any negative effect if these animals have never hibernated or brumanated before ? I know that according to the late famous "Lizard Man" Bert Langerwaft, Tegus that have not gone through all of their hibernations including their first are not suitable for breeding and I was hoping this was not also the case with T. maltifaciata?

•How cold tolerant are Centralian BTS? What are the maximum lows in their natural range? Can they be kept out doors year round?

•Do they have any specific requirements regarding diet and husbandy unlike other BTS species?

Any other additional advise or information regarding Centralians would be greatly appreciated?

Thank you and regards

Warren from SA

[Jeff]

Hi Warren, I'm glad you finally posted! Unfortunately, almost no one here on this forum has kept multis, so you probably won't get much first hand experience. Hopefully Richard will see this and be able to answer all of your questions. I am going to get some contact information for two other people that are keeping them and pm it to you later today. Neither of them are active on the forum but you can email them if you would like.

Good luck! centrilians are great looking skinks!

[TiliquaHabitat]

Thanks Jeff,

That is unfortunate that not many people on this forum keep them but I would appreciate it if you put me in touch with people who do.

[acanthurus]

Hi Warren,

Welcome to the forum. Centralians can be sexed in a similar way to shingles using the "vein method" for males. I have looked at a few large groups of centrals that were wild collected with gravid females and found it to be effective, although difficult to do. Due to their smaller size and general crankiness getting them in a good position can be tricky, and can take a few goes. Even with perfect positioning in can be hit and miss. For this reason I would say if you see the veins then you can be sure its male, if you don't see any over a few attempts at different times and temps, then you can be fairly confident its female. You can cause damage if this method is done incorrectly with too much force. When done right the animal should be held gently by the base of its tail, just distal to the vent and allowed to relax over a few minutes. The vent should be pulled open slowly by the animals own weight as it relaxes. It helps to have an animal that is not too cold and tense, or hot and flighty. If they are aggressive and untrusting it can be almost impossible and should never be forced. In large groups external features do give a clue as with other Tiliqua, unfortunately this is much more difficult with captive animals.

Just a couple of other questions. What is the seller’s reason for selling them? Have they ever bred form the group, and if not why? How old are the animals?

Just a couple of tips on checking the age. Cover the animal’s eyes gently and most will open their mouths. Check their teeth. In old age they tend to lose teeth, with some older animals having none at all. Have a look at the condition along the spine. If the line of the spine is easily seen as a ridge down the back, this is implies wasting of the muscles either side and can indicate old age, esp with otherwise well fed animals. This can be harder to see when they are lying with their belly flat on the ground, as the body weight is supported and can hide the ridge. Another indicator is wasting around the hips, although this can be hidden under fat. Have a look at the eyes. Older animals tend to have slightly more sunken eyes, with darker skin around them. Have a look at the scales, in particular along the belly. Older animals are more likely to have imperfect sheds, and can also be used to give an idea of the general health of the animal. Pick up the animal and feel the muscle tone. They should feel firm and muscular through their core, males more so than females. Older animals feel a bit more loose and floppy through the core, with muscles that are thinner/less plump, and less compliant (think tough cheap steak vs expensive high quality).

Please remember whilst these can give indications, they are by no means infallible. With any method it is more difficult in smaller groups (esp if they are all they same sex or age), over weight animals, and obviously without previous experience. My advice would be that if you have doubts then don’t buy. I have learnt this the hard way on many occasions. I know the feeling of finally finding a species you have always wanted and realising there are a few red flags, but justifying buying them because you might not get another chance. These days I have learnt to trust my gut –although sometimes the heart does still win

A couple of pics of senior citizens to give an idea (sorry wrong species I know). Note the features of the face and eyes. Although more difficult to see in pictures (much easier when in motion), look at the condition of the body and muscle distribution.

Older male (still breeding when pic taken)





Older girl (no longer breeding)

[TiliquaHabitat]

Hi acanthurus,

Are you the Richard on the forum who Jeff mentioned?

Thank you for the information, pics and pointers to tell an old animal from a young one. As I stated in my original post, two of the Centralian's in the group are 5 years old and two are 3 years old. This quad has not been together for very long because two where located in Durban and the other two in JHB, so in different provinces in SA and they have been together since the start of spring in September 011. None of them have ever reproduced according to our knowledge. The seller states that the guy in Durban who currently has all 4 is changing focus and does not want to keep them anymore, so who knows the exact reason for the sale. To our knowledge these are the only 4 T. maltifaciata currently in South Africa.

I am very curious about this "vein method" but I'm not 100% clear on just how to do it and what to look for. The way I understand your description of this method is to hold the lizard by the tail base and allow the animal to hang in midair by its tail which should pull the vent open and exposing a vein in a male?? Do you by any chance have any pics showing an example of this method and what the vein looks like??

Additionaly do you have any input on my other questions I asked in my first post regarding keeping groups together, success of breeding BTS from Europe in the southern hemisphere and brumanation etc.?

Regards

Warren

[Nae]

Hi! Wow, South Africa, thats pretty cool!

The Richard Jeff is speaking of goes by Richard. C on the forums - He currently keeps a group. However, acanthurus is just as reputable

I too am currently looking into centralians, and unfortunately there genuinely isnt very much info on them - Even here in Aus, they are quite difficult to get a hold of and not often kept Sorry I cant offer any info though, although you can try the forum at Aussie Pythons - There are a small number of centralian keepers there

Good luck with everything

[Katrina]

Welcome to the forum! I'm one of the many who can't help with Multis, but here is a link from an earlier thread about the vein method (not my information, I just moved it over to that thread): viewtopic.php?f=19&t=18955

[TiliquaHabitat]

Hi Nae, thanks I will have a look at the Aussie python forum.

Thanks for the welcome and for the link to "vein method" thread Katrina.

You all have been very helpful despite the lack of general information on this species. Am I the only South African here?

[xxmonitorlizardxx]

Then Greg also keeps Centrals. Though he isn't on the forum often.

[Helikaon]

Hi, i keep t a group of 5 they are a very placid skink and i have not seen any aggressive behaviour at all, which sucks when trying to check what sex they are. I find them the most difficult bluey to determin sex. Diet wise i feed exactly the same as my other blueys, so protien and vegies some fruit every once in a while. they do need to be brumated, and i would not keep them outside unless you have good control over the humidity, i can keep westerns outside here but not centrals. during winter i give mine a hot basking spot for a few hrs one a day, i reduced the humidity and obviously stop offering food. Introduce in spring. I find these are definitely up there as my fav, they have personality to boot and every time i walk into my reptile room they are up laying on something hardly ever hide like the easterns.

[TiliquaHabitat]

Hello Helikaon,

It's good to hear some first had experience. I am pleased to hear that they are not known to be aggressive and can be kept in groups. Do you think that there is any breeding benefit to keep them in larger groups rather than in pairs? For example the quad I'm looking to buy might only contain a single female and I was wondering if I would have better success if she was kept with all the males or just one at a time? Fortunately I do live in an arid region of SA with low humidity as we are far from the coast. You say you keep your westerns outside but not the Centrals, is this because of the humidity rather than the cold? what are the maximum low temps you are experiencing in your area during the winter?

[Richard.C]

ive kept up to 6 centralians together indoors,i only have 2 at the moment,which live with a trio of kimberley northerns,i know i know,an odd grouping,been that way for 3 seasons,never any aggression,they are soon to be seperated though,as i plan to get a bigger group of centralian

centralians range accross the top half of australia,i cool mine similar to helikon,keep them hot during the day year round,longer days over summer,shorter days over winter,i offer no night heating,so its still warm ish over night in summer,varys,but over winter it gets quite cool,mine havnt bred yet,havnt witnessed anything anyways,but possably did this season,shoulder scarring,but its hard to tell if they are gravid,as they are tanky anyways,lol

sexing them can be tricky,i havnt tried the vein method,if its one female and 3 males,that could actually help spur the males on,but being difficult to sex the group could be any sex,females are said to grow larger than males,and males being longer tailed,but like all tiliqua,it varys

id be more inclined to house them indoors,better able to meet there needs,but if your climate is similar to that of parts of australia where these animals occur they would do fine outdoors id imagine

[TiliquaHabitat]

Hi Richard, thanks for joining the thread.

If I do decide to go through with the purchase of this group, I will most likely be keeping them indoors where I have better control over their environment. They are too rare and valuable to risk leaving them to the elements outdoors on a year round basis. I mostly just wanted to find out if people have kept them outdoors with success and under what conditions. I keep many species of lizard and where possible I like to keep them out doors in the fresh air and natural sunlight as I feel lizards do best under these natural conditions and of course trying to get away from the huge expense of constantly replacing basking lights in indoor terrariums. I am still actually debating if I am going to keep my Eastern T. s scincoides outside for this coming winter after spending the whole summer in their outdoor pit enclosure.