Toe loss / Feet issues

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Katrina
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Toe loss / Feet issues

Postby Katrina » Thu May 26, 2011 8:19 pm

Feet issues and toe loss in BTS seems to be extremely common in North America. This is based on my experience - I've bought four BTS now with these problems to varying degrees - but if others have different experiences or methods of treatment then please feel free to share them in this thread.

From what I've seen, causes of toe loss can be as simple as keeping on carpet or other substrates that can wrap around and constrict the toes or keeping in small, dirty conditions. It the nails aren't kept trimmed, it can cause the toes to eventually twist sideways so the nail isn't pointing down anymore. If there isn't sufficient hard surfaces to help get all the shed off of toes is can build up and cause constriction. Humidity also plays a factor in shedding, but it seems like having space to walk around and wear down the nails / wear off shed is more important (from what I've seen).

It seems like feet issues are very easy to treat but also can occur in captivity fairly easily. My latest skink with toe issues was kept on carpet (didn't seem very clean / sanitary), but otherwise there didn't seem to be any reason for toe problems. Here are some pictures of the feet:

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When I got him I took away the carpet, scrubbed the enclosure with a 5% bleach solution and rinsed it really well, and put him back on paper towel. I cleaned all of his stuff and only gave back what was necessary - hide, basking rocks, water dish. Less stuff is easier to keep clean and less chance of infecting any sore spots on his feet.

The 3 BTS that I have gotten with serious toe issues also had other health concerns, so they have all been on oral or injectible antibiotics. While antibiotics and vet visits aren't necessary for all toe issues, keep in mind that if infection can enter through open sores it could lead to septecemia (blood infection) which is very serious. For minor issues, such as one swollen or damaged toe, I wouldn't rush off to a vet, but for serious issues or in cases where the husbandry hasn't been great for long periods of time it is highly recommended to seek a qualified vet. They will know whether topical or oral antibiotics are required. If you are 'rescuing' a bluey with health problems or one that has been living in poor conditions, please expect to incur vet costs! Reptiles can hide illness very well but stress of moving and new homes is very taxing - a BTS might seem fine when you look at it (other than minor issues) and then once you bring it home it might go downhill quickly. If this happens - see a vet right away.

At this point, the skink in the pictures was on oral antibiotics. To help with the feet, I gave lukewarm baths with lots of epsom salts dissolved in the water. The water was just high enough to cover the feet completely. I left him to soak for 15-20 minutes at a time. This helped some stuck shed come off and made the long nails soft and easy to trim. Note all the nails that are twisted sideways because they are so long.

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Keeping the toes clean and moisturized is important. In the past, in addition to epsom salt baths I've used emu oil to moisturize the feet. This time, the vet gave me a product called Dermalog - a thick, oily product that has antibiotic and anti-inflammatory properties. It worked well.

Some digits will be too far gone to save, so it is only a matter of time before they fall off. This skink has been with me for 10 weeks now and the feet are quite a bit better but there are still three digits that are swollen and almost falling off. I think once these three digits are shed the feet will be mostly healed.

The swollen digits:

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I don't pick at the toes, as they are swollen and tender - it will only cause them pain. Remember, it took a long time for the problem to get this bad so it will take some time for it to be fixed. Don't expect things to heal overnight!

While this skink is still on paper towel and not completely healed, I have another that had very similar issues but is completely healed. Once the digits that were not able to be saved were lost and her feet healed completed, she was put back on cypress mulch with no special precautions taken. Her feet are completely healed, but permanently damaged, and have not given her any issues since. Other than cypress mulch, she has drift wood, cork bark, slate rock etc to help keep the remaining nails filed down and help with shedding. I haven't had to trim nails or assist in shedding at all.

The healed feet:

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If you are experience toe issues, please examine your husbandry and see what might need changing. With proper husbandry they issues should be halted completely - it isn't normal (I was told it was 'normal' for them by the last seller!). These kind of issues are seen almost solely in North America - BTS don't have issues in the wild, so if these problems are arising it means we aren't giving them the conditions they need. Note that in the second last picture the one toe does not have normal scales - it almost looks like it is down to the bone! She has several toes like this, but it doesn't cause her any problems at all. This skink has not had any feet issues for over three years now.

Please feel free to add anything that might help others with this! :D Thanks!
Last edited by Katrina on Tue Sep 27, 2011 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Alioop » Fri May 27, 2011 5:32 am

Seems like the Indos & Meraukes are the most commonly affected species. I don't recall ever seeing this problem in Northerns, and very rarely in IJs.
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Postby Katrina » Fri May 27, 2011 7:30 am

Alioop wrote:Seems like the Indos & Meraukes are the most commonly affected species. I don't recall ever seeing this problem in Northerns, and very rarely in IJs.


Yeah, good point. I meant to mention this. It does seem like it is predominantly Meraukes / Indos but I'm not sure if that is because they are imports so more likely to be in poor conditions (pet stores, importers or buyers who didn't research fully) or if it is that they are more susceptible to certain health problems.

Callie (Northern) has lost a lot of toes, although by the time I got her it was completely healed.
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Postby critterguy » Fri May 27, 2011 9:36 am

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=til ... as_sdtp=on

The first result of this search is a case from Australia. The culture results showed a fungal infection appeared responsible. It might be wise to isolate individuals with toe problems the same way you would any others. Not sure if this case is analogous to those seen by the OP if the former cases responded to antibiotics.

If it is truly fungal in origin Lamisil (the spray kind) might be worth a try. People use it on frogs with Chytrid fungus. Perhaps feet could be soaked in it.
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Postby Katrina » Fri May 27, 2011 12:02 pm

That fungal article is linked in the Articles thread I think. It has been floating around for a while. Interesting, because I have never, ever treated for fungus and all of my issues have cleared up nicely (other than Nemo, but his issues were more than just feet). When I first read that article I brought up the possibility with my vet, but he didn't think it was likely and it hasn't come up again. I know LeaBilby experienced problems with one of her Easterns feet, but I don't remember if treating for fungus helped.

I'd be really interested to see if forum members have any experience with this - this article has been around for several years and I can't remember if anyone has ever treated toe / feet issues with fungicide successfully. From what I've seen, I'd be inclined to believe the problems I dealt with were related to husbandry and not fungal. Obviously this doesn't mean that all toe issues are the same.
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Postby Iceman » Sat May 28, 2011 5:29 pm

In my experience it would seem that toe/foot problems can occur readily in all species, although they are certainly more common in the gigas subspecies. This is likely due to the fact (as others have mentioned) that these subspecies are kept in poor conditions at wholesalers and importers. The other obvious conclusion to be drawn from this seeming commonness in Indos is that they require (or at the very least are acclimated to) higher humidity than other species. I am sure that this has been discussed elsewhere in more detail. My first skink, Nazinga, an IJ, had not a single complete toe on any of her feet. As I was her second owner, I did not witness the loss of toes, but it occurred while she was in the possession of the first owner, not while she was held at an importers or wholesalers as may be imagined. This is a common theme with newly imported skinks with foot problems that I have seen. Many of them seem completely normal upon inspection, or have a single "bad toe". Over two to three weeks, the remaining toes show signs of infection, and must be removed. On one particular rescue Tanimbar, a person could smell the toes from across the room the stench was so powerful. One may think that this was simply due to tissue necrotization, (not sure if that is a word but it should be), but a distinct bacterial component was (I believe) also present. Unfortunately The skink died before any cultures were performed. One final point that I would like to bring up is that I have seen more foot problems in WC or LTC Tanimbars than any other Blue-Tongue subspecies. I am limited by a small sample size, but perhaps others can share their experiences with this subspecies. In all species, it has been my experience that the "thumb" (inside digit on front foot) is among the most susceptible digits. Pretty much all of what I have stated above is from my personal experience, so, as always, please take it all cum grano salis.
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Postby Adalon » Thu Jun 02, 2011 5:22 pm

I don't know if this is helpful, but when I first received Adalon, some serious humidity issues I didn't address fast enough and negligence on my part for not checking him thoroughly after his first shed resulted in damage to both his back feet as well as his tail. This happened around January 2011. The digits had hardened, 2 fell off themselves while the other came off in a 2nd bath that I did too late. I believe the shed was stuck and had already killed the toes after only 2 days of a full shed and bath so the window to save the toes can be small.

When they came off the skin was pink and slightly swollen, but there was no bleeding or signs of damage farther down the foot. He reacted sharply when touched near the toes and seemed to move around with a back foot lifting up occasionally. After a couple days the swelling was gone and after maybe a week and a half the skin was pale and looked normal outside of the missing toe/nail and he moved around normally with no visible signs of pain.

I believe everyone decided he is a Merauke (or Merauke/IJ mix) so the issue of humidity most definitely played a role as I believe is the case with all Indonesian species? At the time, he had been moved into a new glass tank with 75% of the top screened and the only substrate aside from a water dish and a log hide was paper towels and two slate tiles (was recommended until a fecal and parasite check was done.) The humidity in the house at the time was around 10-20% if that, as this area of California is just naturally very dry. I misted the cage in the morning and evening in an effort to add some humidity until I could use proper substrate, but when he started his first shed it was pretty clear the humidity was no where near what he needed. I bathed him 2-3 times a week and for that shed manually picked off what I thought was all of the stuck area with a towel and tweezers. After the toes had fallen off I kept him on the paper towels still which could have helped him avoid infection.

It may be my imagination, but it seems like the toes have grown out a bit from where they used to be. I don't know if it's even possible to regenerate them and to what extent, but I'm definitely going to watch what happens over his lifetime and perhaps document it in photos.


I've tried to find any clear pictures from around January but you can't make anything out of them (brown/black surface + low res = blah). I just took these today on some sketch paper, I don't know if anyone can use them for any future topics regarding feet, but feel free to use them. I can upload them in higher resolution to my Picasa account if they are too hard to see.

Back left foot, middle and left of middle toe damaged:
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Back right foot, far right toe nearly completely severed:
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Tail damage, healed mostly but the tip is angled from the damage:
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Full pic top down:
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As of these pictures he should be around 7-8 months old (seems a bit big for under a year, but I was told he was born early/mid November 2010 and was around 8" when I first got him in December), is 19.5" from tail tip to snout, just under 10" vent to snout and currently weighs 372g after an ugly hard boiled egg/zuccini/cherry poop. :shock:
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Postby Fatal_S » Fri Jun 03, 2011 5:01 am

Adalon, are you sure he didn't have shed issues before you got him? Normally, unless he grew a remarkable amount in the short time you had him before toe-loss, it should have taken a lot more time than just 2 days. Generally it takes several bad sheds going untouched before the old skin is tight enough to cut off circulation.

I've personally had an issue with CareFresh substrate fibers wrapped around a skinks toe, cutting off circulation, causing swelling and then toe loss. Several of my skinks are missing toes from before they got to me; Skids for example only has 2 toes, and one seems to be a nail that sticks out the side of a toe. I'll try to get some pictures like Adalon did.
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Postby Katrina » Sat Jun 04, 2011 10:19 am

Thanks for the input Iceman - very interesting observations.

Adalon - I agree with Fatal. It should take a lot longer than 2 days for problems to arise, so I would be surprised if he didn't have issues from before you got him. The tail looks like it was cut.

Lots of time my BTS will take longer than 2 days to get all the bits of shed off of toes with no ill effects.
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Postby Adalon » Thu Jun 09, 2011 12:07 pm

Katrina wrote:Thanks for the input Iceman - very interesting observations.

Adalon - I agree with Fatal. It should take a lot longer than 2 days for problems to arise, so I would be surprised if he didn't have issues from before you got him. The tail looks like it was cut.

Lots of time my BTS will take longer than 2 days to get all the bits of shed off of toes with no ill effects.


That makes the most sense, but I had looked him over and bathed him a few times previously to his shed and thought I was pretty thorough. He could have had remnants of his first shed still stuck to his toes such that it was not noticeable even a month later when he had his second shed which damaged the already damaged toes? I was just shocked at how quickly the damage was done and mostly attributed it to extremely low humidity which caused the skin to dry incredibly fast, but I had no experience with stuck shed before that to really accurately judge.

His tail as far as I can tell was undamaged before his second shed, but again I could have missed that as well. Pictures don't really show any signs from a week before his shed either.

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Postby Argentra » Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:26 pm

Well, I have my own experience with lost toes as my IJ fella came to me with ALL his toes stubby. I learned from his previous owner that he had lost them at a rather young age because the family had not done proper research, the humidity was too low, and stuck shed on his feet that went unnoticed caused the losses.

I can say, however, that the loss of his toes has not caused further issues for him. Yes, he is VERY sensitive about them being touched, but they all healed well and he has no problems moving around...except when he wants to climb smooth surfaces. :) He moves all feet properly and fully, and can really move when he wants to.
I wanted to add this to show that they can still lead great lives and be happy, even with all their toes effectively missing.
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Postby pipsqueaks_beardies » Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:03 pm

just purchased a northern with very bad looking toes and it looks like, since she is shedding, her toes are falling off (they were too far gone) I probablly should take her to a vet to get them removed. I saw her at an expo a few months back and the guy still had her. When I first saw her, her toes were not too terrible. I think he was keeping her with other blueys in too small a space and their was some toe nipping going on.

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